"Inspired" vs. Copying

So totally feel guilty after reading all of this. i am extremely guilty of copying others work, and as having it as my avatar on here. on the up side i am a hobby mum face painter so i doubt i am stepping on any toes. also i try to acknowledge who inspired me at the time. also i wouldn't use a direct copy in a contest as i know i would simply be out classed at the get go.
i guess i just find it confusing that in almost all other threads about using others work it has always been ok as long as you painted it your self and not lifted their pictures.
i can totally see both sides of the fence. but now have a real sick feeling in my stomach worried that i am perhaps one of the culprits the finger is being pointed at. so i vow to change it up and never do a direct copy again even if i am in love with the design

Okay, have read the thread now. Isn't the conclusion more or less:

* It is fine you try to copy other peoples work, but if you can do it perfect, it is time you made some variations.
* Don't enter copies in competitions.
* If you know a design is made by a competitor in your area, don't use it on your board (unless you have had permission)
* If you see a design you like, but it is not as a step-by-step or youtube video, it is polite to ask for permission from the artist before you copy it (or use it) or at least mention/tag them after. If you don't know the artist, say so, maybe someone else does.
* If you are just inspired by it (taken some parts like colours, shapes, or some detail) you have made something new.
* Don't feel guilty, unless you know you are doing something wrong, then just don't do it in the future

Synni,I'm sorry that your having those feelings about this thread. It is a topic that only gets worse the more its swept under the rug. If you love a design to the point where you would want to copy it point by point, why not simply find a way to put a little of yourself into it and let the original design inspire your new creation? That way you get the elements that you were first attracted to AND you've created something that also possesses some of your creative DNA as well?

As far as the "newbie" designation as it pertains to this whole copying/lackluster ethical compass thing...
A lot of us have heard the justification, "I'm still new to this...I didn't know" or "I just started painting, I didn't know that I couldn't use someone else's photos". After you hear those types of justifications time after time, it's easy to mentally link the offense to the new face painter demographic. I agree that this is erroneous, but its what has evolved over years of excuses. There is a midocum of truth in the relation however because it seems to me that the more seasoned make comments about how anything on the internet is free game and 'if you don't want it copied don't post it", which I liken to saying "try and stop me".

The internet is a wonderful advent to society that has an double edged sword alter ego. I think that we should all be able to share our creations with our ever shrinking world while still retaining the right to have our work treated with some sort of respect. The whole, "it's out there so expect it to be stolen" argument ruffles my feathers because that same argument could be made for the car I drive (if you don't want it stolen, don't take it out of the garage), my children (if you don't want them hurt, keep them in the house) or any type of media. We will never get pass this empass as long as the understanding of an individuals rights to intellectual property is as clear as mud.

I wish it could be as cut and dry as saying, "if the artist doesn't want you to copy their work copying is not allowed"... but as long as there are those who feel that internet=free access/reign regardless of what the artist who dared to share feels... there will be no solution. I guess we're just going to have to get to the point where people stop sharing at all before a solution is reached.

LoneWolf wrote:Okay, have read the thread now. Isn't the conclusion more or less:

* It is fine you try to copy other peoples work, but if you can do it perfect, it is time you made some variations.
* Don't enter copies in competitions.
* If you know a design is made by a competitor in your area, don't use it on your board (unless you have had permission)
* If you see a design you like, but it is not as a step-by-step or youtube video, it is polite to ask for permission from the artist before you copy it (or use it) or at least mention/tag them after. If you don't know the artist, say so, maybe someone else does.
* If you are just inspired by it (taken some parts like colours, shapes, or some detail) you have made something new.
* Don't feel guilty, unless you know you are doing something wrong, then just don't do it in the future

Perfect!

Synni, I think you did a wonderful job in recreating, so I see the ability in your work to make one of your own. Plus I love the new avatar. This is how I use inspiration from anothers work, now without copying ( I poorly copied a ton of work from snaz when I started) I do kinda what Shannon does.
....... Instead of looking at my computer screen and painting it directly to someones face, I take out my handy blank face printouts, and I draw the designs on there. I shade with cheapo crayons, and use different colors and swap in up alittle bit. Then once painted it really shows little to no resemblence to the original. THen after I paint it several time, trying from memory, it goes to little resemblence. I will give you an example.

I found this princess crown online and really like it.... I knew I would prefer to use my TAG gold I bought recently so i would have different colors. Heres my inspiration photo http://fiestafantasticentertainment.com/images/facepaint/princess.jpg


Now this was a first time painting this so its not so good, but after I paint it several more times and change it more and more, it will be fine. You can also see that the original is so much better...but hey I am no expert.

[img][/img]

ps: About the Kerry Ann Smith copying issue. If she did not want to have the design out, then it might not be the best idea painting it at a facepaint convention. Hers designs is lovely, I have also been inspired by them many times, so I can understand why one wants to copy one of them =)


must be the next conclusion:
* if you don't want your design to be copied, don't post it online and most effectice: don't paint it in public ever (but that would not be so fun)

Lone, she painted it during the "Pro-paint session" on...Saturday morning was it? to get a good professional photo of it. To me that's the equivalent of painting it at a booth, not a class, if that makes sense.

I totally agree with your round-up, thank you.

Lady Jayde, I also agree with everything you said, thank you. Here's where the problem comes in, people aren't just copying images that are posted here. They are going on websites to do so. How can we promote ourselves then, which the web is one of our best ways of doing so, and keep people from copying? Watermarks only stop (in rare cases) the use of the photos. It's a catch 22.

Points I'm going to clarify:

1. I didn't say where the avatar was displayed.

2. I didn't say the copier was contacted. To my knowledge the original artist was, but since it wasn't me who contacted her, this is a 3rd party statement.

3. The copier is someone who is not new and has been around awhile, and should know better.

4. The "newb" thing came into play only after several people joined the thread effectively stating 'Well, I'm new so I think it's okay.'

The fact that people are saying they are sickened by this because they have copied is interesting. I said clearly, in my first sentence, that we all do/have done it.
What I am sickened by is after many of the respected pro's/artists on this board come have stated that copying is not okay (not only in this thread but in others), people are still attempting to justify it- including some saying 'don't listen to the respected pro's/artists and do what you want'. Instead of using this as a lesson on how to progress (if you can copy it, you can change it- as Shannon said), the thoughts, feelings and opinions are being shrugged off completely.

Lynnie wrote:Lone, she painted it during the "Pro-paint session" on...Saturday morning was it? to get a good professional photo of it. To me that's the equivalent of painting it at a booth, not a class, if that makes sense.

If you paint it at a booth, there is still a possibility that either another facepainter sees the design or that someone will take a photo of it, put it on the Internet where another facepainter sees it. I don't approve someone making a copy, but if I painted something at a facepaint convention I would not be surprised if I saw the design again. People are there to be inspired. If she did not want it out, it should have been painted in the hotel room, given a mask over your face all the time you was outside the photo room, so nobody saw the design.

Sorry Lynnie, I misread the first post. I thought it said the copyier was contacted.

I thought it was uploaded to Facebook or was that the copiers Facebook?

-

A very interesting video on the "price" of "originality." This is quite relevant to this discussion on a broader level.

"Why do we like an original painting better than a forgery? Psychologist Paul Bloom argues that human beings are essentialists -- that our beliefs about the history of an object change how we experience it, not simply as an illusion, but as a deep feature of what pleasure (and pain)."

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/paul_bloom_the_origins_of_pleasure.html

This posted, my avatar is a recreation of a Mark Reid design I liked. It's not exact, but it's close. It was my very first attempt at a Reid design and I gave it credit on my facebook where I first posted it. Sometimes something I copy is going to have more of my own tweaks than the original, sometimes it will come pretty close. I'm not good enough to make a replica, but I enjoy learning new techniques by practicing established ones. This is how all artists learn.

Are there those that abuse this and use these ideas to portray as their own design? Sure. Has this been a problem as long as art has been created? Absolutely.

What I find interesting is that often is it what we see/hear first, like with music. At least I have often found that I prefer the one I have heard first, no matter if it is the original or not. (unless it is a bad copy off cause)

@Lone, I've definitely experienced that with music. If I hear a cover of a song first, sometimes that resonates with me much more strongly than the original ever will.

Shannon Fennell wrote:I mean actually take MY photos... as in copy and save the actual photo of my work and use it as your own. for display, promotion, etc.

Feel free to copy and be inspired... just leave my photos on the computer.

I've had photos lifted right off my website and posted to others websites and also used in a resume as their own work.... with my watermark still on the photo!

Thanks for clarifying!

"Feel free to copy and be inspired... just leave my photos on the computer. " - that's what i thought . . . I totally agree with this.

It is atrocious that someone has done that with your work!

Lynnie wrote:.......I was asking for people's thoughts on copying vs. inspiration. There you go. That's it. I was shocked and saddened by the amount of people who believe that copying and then using it as more than a learning tool is okay and I expressed that.
There ya go.

It's great that you started this thread! I admire your passion, regardless of whether I totally agree or not.

The discussion may be heated and passionate but it has provided the opportunity for people to express their opinion - that's the point - right? The point should not be to try and convince everyone that 'mine' or 'yours' or 'FP101's' opinion is the 'right one' but just to educate, provide insight and accept that everyone has these right to have their opinion on this Forum whilst remaining respectful of other's opinions.

Everyone's opinion is relevant - as different as they may be.

Thanks again for starting the thread.

Shannon Fennell wrote:
Nothing is original, even if it is... it is all derivative.

And... I think that the responsibility also has to be taken on by the original artists too... as, IF they have designs or photos that they would prefer not to be used then they should not post them for people to see. I have some stuff I don't post... but lots of stuff I do.

I can see where it is confusing to a complete newbie but I generally think that most, when they post a photo of a design they copied, are just excited to show that they are indeed able to paint like the artist they admired... or at least complimenting the original artist as obviously they really liked their work...

As in all things ... take what you like and agree with, use it, or, ignore what you don't.

How can you be so smart and talented? everything you said is perfect. If you ever run for the "Face Painters Country's President .... I will vote for you!!! really I will vote for you if you run for anything, I feel so much respect for you ....VOTE for SHANNON

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience with us.

I second the nomination!

You could go on the Tonight Show (like Roseanne did last night) to annouce your campaign. Better yet...you could just be queen!

you are tops in my book.

Ah, no, please no titles. Just send cash.

Shannon Fennell wrote:

Taradoodles wrote:..wow. Ok then, let me say I'm sorry if I have stepped on any toes for designs, and please PM me and Ill delete the images that offended you by copying. Im pretty nervous now about painting anything I see now. Im still new to but I like these newer ways to paint things quicker! I never saw it as a problem as long as you didnt call it 'yours' if you had copied it exactly. Isnt that what off brands are for?
I dont want to get into it, but I know I have 'copied' several design ideas from this forum and facebook. Didnt mean to be malicious. Let me know and Ill take care of it, dont want enemies. Most of the time they are different anyways because my level is different and I like my own swirls and such but it could be close enough. I wouldnt enter a contest unless its my own creation, like the dolphin face. lol You saw that funny face.

You don't need to do that... and I think we've all said that copying is part of the learning process and there is nothing wrong with it. There is no need to apologize nor remove photos. If you've painted the designs in the photos you are using that is all perfectly fine with me, and I assume most of the others.

What is the issue is exact copies of designs being passed off as original ideas, at least that is my interpretation.

Ya people have been ranting on this topic since well before this board even came to be. Pore Gary on the snaz board has an auto response I think lol. I have dun it and people have dun it to me. Shoot half my board is from Shanon's 5 min face ..... cus I can get carried a way with detail, .... a little.. maybe... lol Shoot, Not a new topic. just a learning experience for everyone. Remember to put my version of.... (really cool crap here)-name, and for those being copped remember your being copped because u came up with something really stinken cool, its flattery at its finest. and
"What is the issue is exact copies of designs being passed off as original ideas, at least that is my interpretation." ya. Ok I haven't read all the threads so if I am being redundant sorry, ran out of time.

I'd just like to say that I respect EVERYONE on this board so very much. Thank you all for your diplomacy on this issue no matter which side of the fence you're on in this issue. Yeah, I'm kinda with Synni, if you look at us as hobbyists, but I'm sure one day we will make more money at this than now. I still want my work to progress and be the very best it can be, and it is growing thanks to the inspiration and kindness of everyone involved here in this forum. Thank you all.

http://www.facepaintforum.com/t4055-credit-where-credit-s-due

When I first started out (all those months ago - eep what a terrible horrible monster and not in a good way!!!) I asked a question about copying then photographing your attempt, I was glad that the amazing long time painters round here were kind in their responses

I'm a little late to the game & I've only made it through about 1/2 the posts, but wanted to say:

We all started by copying. We all have inspiration folders. But, my advice is to stretch yourselves & not just continually copy others work. Only copying others work will make you stagnant & stale. It makes it that much harder to find your originality. I prefer to stretch myself & see where my art will take me. I still copy work to help me learn a new technique or style, but then I have to make it my own. I'll never paint like Marcela or any of the other bigs, but that's ok because I'm happiest when I paint like me!

On a side note, I've had a design stolen, submitted into a contest & had the person win or come in 2nd... I don't remember. Was I upset, yes. Mostly I was upset that I'd posted the photo a week before the contest started & couldn't submit it by the contest rules. But then I was upset that it was copied almost completely & then submitted into the contest I wanted to participate in. I did nothing about it 'cause it just wasn't worth it.

Psalmbook wrote:I'm a little late to the game & I've only made it through about 1/2 the posts, but wanted to say: . . . .

On a side note, I've had a design stolen, submitted into a contest & had the person win or come in 2nd... I don't remember. Was I upset, yes. Mostly I was upset that I'd posted the photo a week before the contest started & couldn't submit it by the contest rules. But then I was upset that it was copied almost completely & then submitted into the contest I wanted to participate in. I did nothing about it 'cause it just wasn't worth it.

That would be upsetting.

I have "dobbed" someone in - it was a contest Clayton was running (love him) and I noticed one of the designs from the Forum so I wrote to him straight away and let him know that thre was a submission for the contest with a design copied almost exactly from the Forum and gave him the link too. He was very grateful. Comps are about 'originals' so in this case i felt compelled to 'dibba-dob'. Glad I did too, and Clayton was also grateful....good outcome!