"Inspired" vs. Copying

Taradoodles wrote:..wow. Ok then, let me say I'm sorry if I have stepped on any toes for designs, and please PM me and Ill delete the images that offended you by copying. Im pretty nervous now about painting anything I see now. Im still new to but I like these newer ways to paint things quicker! I never saw it as a problem as long as you didnt call it 'yours' if you had copied it exactly. Isnt that what off brands are for?
I dont want to get into it, but I know I have 'copied' several design ideas from this forum and facebook. Didnt mean to be malicious. Let me know and Ill take care of it, dont want enemies. Most of the time they are different anyways because my level is different and I like my own swirls and such but it could be close enough. I wouldnt enter a contest unless its my own creation, like the dolphin face. lol You saw that funny face.

You don't need to do that... and I think we've all said that copying is part of the learning process and there is nothing wrong with it. There is no need to apologize nor remove photos. If you've painted the designs in the photos you are using that is all perfectly fine with me, and I assume most of the others.

What is the issue is exact copies of designs being passed off as original ideas, at least that is my interpretation.

I feel that actual photos are obviously copyrighted...I think we all agree with that. I've called wedding cake sites and turned in a few local cake decorators when I recognized designs. Passing-off someone's work as your own is a pretty universal no-no. To me this is the equivalent of publishing the written word.

But aside from those cases I'm wondering what kind of damages there would be? I can see if the "stolen" design were entered in a face or body art competition or were in a for-profit publication or the subject of paid artist training. (For instance, someone mentioned that their husband's picture ended up in a face painting book without credit...I was surprised that it was a well-known publisher too...that is a no-no and the damages are apparent.)

When the design is applied on a different face (used as an avatar) and presumably a local market website or design board, where is the devaluing of the design? Where are the stolen profits? I think you'd have a hard time proving damages in civil court. Would you want a face painter to pay a commission to the original artist every time it was painted? Mark Reid would be a billionaire!

I found a pretty good link to copyright explanation but it makes me wonder how we can really apply it to the application of makeup?

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

I just hope that unless it's costing us money or reputation that we'd let it go. But I acknowledge that my mind always has room for change (there are a lot of cobwebs up there.)

D.

Designs aren't actually copyrighted in make-up or face paint unless you go through the process of registering it. It CAN be done. And there are several iconic designs in sfx that are copyrighted. And I know of one face painter that trademarked one of her designs... and it was still getting ripped off!

I am not specifically referring to anyone here as I really don`t know who is doing what but... my take on it is that people are copying exactly for various reasons:

1) Just learning and feel that the only way they can paint a design is to do it exactly they same... they aren`t comfortable or aware than changing it is part of the learning process too! But they will figure it out if they stick with it.

2) Lazy. They probably use other peoples photos on their display too...

3) The original design is too damn good and pretty much perfect and they don`t want to mess it up! In that case... don`t publish it! Just paint it and none of this would come up repeatedly.

I grow to love you more and more Shannon!

If you copy someone's photo without permission or use someome elses photos and pass them off as your own work, that makes you an unethical theif who treads on low moral ground. A person who conducts themselves on low moral ground is personally and individually responible for thier own wrongdoing. "New" or "seasoned profesional" there is nothing mutually exclusive about either "status" that should have any correlation to being a theif (even if put into "quotation" marks.)

I take tons of inspiration from so many of you. I cannot express how much I have learned about face painting here, and I would never use someone's property nor could I live with myself if I copied someones work line for line and passed it off as my own (even if I could) because that would be a lie, and I don't do that because of what it does to my soul.

None of that has anything to do with being a "new" at face painting. It is because I conduct myself in a moral and ethical way. I gather, from some of the remarks, that many new face painters also felt a little lumped into a category that they felt the need to defend. Kind of like the age old question: "when did you stop beating your wife?"

Sorry, the "old mom" in me just squished out...

Anyway, thanks to those of you who will continue to be my inspiration. I hope someday to pass the torch, but not the scortch. Leson in life that has nothing to do with FP...

CottonKandyClown wrote:Honestly, I find this thread to be unprofessional and not cool at all. Why doesn't this person you are talking about, go to the person who supposedly copied and talk to her? Instead of using someone else to pick a fight? She might have gotten the design from someone else who copied the original This isn't high school. I've always thought this place was a "safe" place for face painters.

Totally agree. This thread feels more like a warning. Watch out!

The only way I can see getting this worked up about someone copying you online designs, is if they won something you entered, or got it published. And even then, your superior work should speak for itself!

Tash quote_ Now I'm confused....CottonKandyClown you wrote the first line and then put a laughing face so I don't know if you were serious or not - event though it is a very serious statement. And sorry but what is YT?
It was a RAZZ or tongue stuck out.

YT is YouTube

How is it un-professional to want to protect your creations? It's the public fight in this thread that is unprofessional.


Why does everyone think if work is put up on the net is is there to be copied? You can copy it - but that doesn't mean that that is what it was put there for.

I don't agree with straight up copying a photo. This is Copyrighted


Lynnie was not trying to pick a fight - and this thread has no reflection on whether this forum is a good/bad/or safe place to be. Every so often this issue comes up with people that have been painting for awhile v's people who have just starting painting..... evrytime the same thing plays out.

Yes, I do believe she came here to pick a fight for her friend. IMO

CottonKandyClown - if someone started a business down the road from you and called it say - " CottonKandy Face painting" and copied your pics to the point where they copied backgrounds and poses.. the style of your logo and some verbage from your site.... would you be ok with this?

Yes, I have had an online biz in the passed. I did get a product stolen by a customer and reused. It sucks and I later retired my biz because it hurt so bad. I talked to a lawyer and it just wasn't worth it to spend all that money.

How do you know she was contacted?

If not ask yourself why.... and maybe you'll get where Lynnie was going with this.
[/quote]

I know because I saw the original conversation about this happening.
The person who did the copying does not use this forum - so I fail to see how she was trying to pick a fight with anyone.
Perhaps you found the tone of her post aggressive in some way - I actually read it more as defensive but you get that with forums.

When I see people take apart my posts and answer in short bold font I often feel like they are having a go at me and I have to step back and try not to get offended and just see it as a their way of trying to deal with the many points I brought up or questions I asked.

Recently someone from here ( whom I like very much) used one of my original designs - changed the colors and entered it in a comp. I found out about it later just by chance... it didn't win and I wasn't given any credit for coming up with it and I didnt' ever say anything to her or to anyone else.

It is this reason that I appreciate this subject coming up every so often so that people new to the game can work out what's ok and what's not.

Unfortunately everytime it is brought up the person bringing it up is attacked.
CottonkandyClown - I hope I haven't upset you in anyway by not understanding or agreeing your previous post.

Tash, I'm sorry I wasn't trying to come at you I was just answering quickly and made my answers bold because I was trying to answer fast and then put my kids to bed.

So the person isn't even a member here? I thought it was over her avatar? Did I not read that right?

So she is admitting to stealing?

I prefer to hear both sides and then decide who is right or wrong. Even then, I'm usually understanding in the wrong. I don't believe anyone should be stoned.

Yes I'm sorry - she referenced someone on here using a copied design from a particular artist... and I agree with you if they painted it themselves then it has been recreated and there is nothing you can do. It would be nice if they changed one or two things or whatever but really... it would be even nicer if they just asked... chances are the artist would be happy for you to copy and be flattered you asked. But when you don't ask it feel like 'taking' for some reason. If you copied from Youtube - then you did exactly as you are supposed to - the videos on youtube are made to teach... the pics on FB aren't.... they are supposed to promote our bis. ( or maybe they are for some and not for others as the case may be).

I was talking about the person she first referenced first that had had her pictures copied - that is a forum member - sorry for the mix up.

Tash, can I copy your 'butterfly leg' in your gallery? It is beautiful!!!

I also got the impression that someone was being pointed out without being pointed out. Hope its not me..haha. Since I have never been contacted, I guess I am safe for now. I do admit most of my designs are pretty generic, and have been trying to make more time to borrow kids with some more original ideas I have.

I have always felt that this was a safe place for us fpers.

I can feel the tension from the post going back and forth, and honestly it gives me a heavy feeling. I don't like to see the back and forth.

This has always been a place where somewhat like minded/ moralled painters have congregated, shared our face paintings, and our feelings. We have supported and helped one another. The ones who were really not very like minded at all have usually moved on. Maybe I should say like hearted not exactly minded.

I do appreciate the subject, this will inform somewhat on what the standard for this is in the future, even though it doesn't seem everyone agrees. We do know the standard for "borrowing pics" thanks to posts like these.

Still big *huggs* to you Lynnie. I imagine that this has been hurtful to your friend, which in return hurt you. I most certainly see your point and agree that an exact copy is wrong.
I see certain artist who are gifted and well taught and practiced, whose work stands miles beyond the normal fper. It must be incredibly frustrating for those artist to be copied. However (I say this because the person was contacted and didn't respond) we all know there will always be people who steal from others, and for me Grace, Mercy and Prayer helps me to move past these instances. While my fping may never be good enough to steal, I lock my doors at night and when I leave, not because of strangers, but because of a family member.

Hi Nora,
Please do! And share the results with me please.
I can tell you what I used if you like.

ok, real reluctant to join in on this thread. I usually stay well away from anything getting too heated. Forums can be tricky places. The written word can be so easily misconstrued etc However I do find myself relating (being guilty of) to the heart of this topic.

I am a noob. To the businss side of things and to painting (on a huge learning curve here). I have been busily preparing a website . I have been happily copying away thinking that was ok, as long as I don’t use anyone elses photos and I do the actual painting myself. All my photos are of either me or my family. Thankfully the vast majority of my copied work has been from SBS pieces in books I have, or You Tube, so I guess that’s ok.

I find copying is a great way to learn. I see something I really like and want to have a go, and then if by some miracle it actually turns out ok, well, then I want to use it or show it off. I have actually managed to come up with some of my own stuff and this is my biggest goal. However I know for sure I have also copied pictures from magazines and from this forum, in fact one is something you actually posted on this forum Lynnie!!! Oh man don’t hate me! I’m sorry! I had no idea that was a no no!! Do you want me to take it down?? It’s on my website (in my gallery, the single dino mask) I pretty much copied it from one of your postings!! Yikes. Just coz I liked the yellow as opposed to the green you always see and the cracks on the side etc. Guess I should have changed it some more and maybe just painted more from memory rather than the actual picture.

I don’t know, this is kinda stressful now. I don’t want to be p***ing anyone off! It’s just I don’t really have the self confidence/skill to paint from memory just yet. I’m working on trying to find my own style but that’s a ways off yet. Man, I also have Daizys fairy, (although I did that one from memory and well, it just sucks in comparison to her work). I was also going to do Angies butterfly and Tash’s rainbow kitty!!!! LOL I’m a copycat monster!! So should I not do these?! Is that what’s being said here?? Or do them, but just not directly from the picture and just try to summon up a bit more confidence in my ability and to accept it will be a bit different and that’s ok. Oooo I think that might be it? Yeah? Oohhh, but it just doesn’t look as good! BUT I HAVE TO ADMITT I HAVE BEEN COPYING AND NOT JUST INSPIRED! (lol, oh man I feel like I have an addiction and the first step to healing myself is admitting I have a problem!! : )

**sigh** The reason I decided to join in the thread is to help clarify exactly what is being said and maybe explain from a noobs point of view. Trying to really use the powers of my imagination here and picture myself as fabulous and everything thing I did, people were copying it! How would I feel? Firstly, flattered! Wow, awesome. But then if someone was churning out everything exactly the same as me and getting all the cred and work as a result. Well. Not so awesome. That would suck!! Is this how it all starts? Someone like me, copying away?? I don’t know?? If nothing else, this lil chicken will be trying to curb her copying ways!

I too am at the copying stage, i see something on here and i want to see if i can recreate it and even it its nowhere close i'll take a picture and work on it more later til it is better. I have been working on my own butterfly's but they are never as good as yours.(they never look finished to me) Having said that we are all our own worst critics. I don't have my own website yet(except FB) For now i dont have the confidence to go out and hope someone will pay me for something i'm not happy with yet. For now I'll paint the kids on my street and even have a go at my own stuff- a necessary step to improve IMO. I look back on my first paintings now and cringe at them, and even some of my recent stuff too.

Having said that i am a copier though, i would never enter a comp with someone else's work - for me it would be a matter of pride, if i were to enter anything it would be because I designed it and I painted it and because I am proud of it. Fingers crossed i dont get discouraged before then.

Also on the copying thing - For me its more been from a book than from the internet except one butterfly that i know is from here that i just LOVED and if i looked for it again in these thousands of pages im sure i would find again to credit. (im sorry to whoever it belonged to - i'm afraid i butchered it)

When i get to the day that someone copies me- yes i'll be excited, but i understand even from a noob point of view how being copied would really p*$$ someone off if it is used as their own - especially if that person is capable of creating their own.

Wow - this has really stirred the pot! ... and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I'm going to keep this short . . .

For newbies reading this thread please don't be 'put-off' or offended.

For those that may be easily intimidated, for those that may lack confidence and for those that love FP and just don't have the 'creative gene' it's ok! Most FP I have come across are more than happy to share their designs and tips & tricks. I hope to follow in these lovely and kind people's footsteps . . . I have already offered to have Jams with newbies to show them what I have learnt so far. Beautiful kind people I have come across inspire me to be giving and kind too. (not saying those with a different opinion on this thread are not kind or giving - so don't read that into this!)

Go ahead and laugh and wave your finger in disappointment at my Mark Reid tiger avatar . . . I post it with pride!

Like I said - everyone is entitled to their opinion!

Shannon Fennell wrote: . . . And never, ever, use MY photos without my permission...

really???? Can you please clarify this? What do you mean by "use"? Does this mean "copy" or does this mean "use as inspiration" or does this mean "print out and claim as your own" (the last of which I would never do)

I have read this with interest as it reminded me of a thread in the uk forum
This is a quote from a super painter with a lot of common sense.

I will start by saying; that I agree that original work, completely copied should be credited; however I can remember a debate in 1992 asking what was an original design? where did it start and where did it become derivative? for sure the quality has moved on, but I have pics from 20 years ago that look so like todays designs, so what is an original design,?
Back in the day the Snaz photo comps we have had painters enter exact copies of designs already published and win, as the book/ mag was not widely distributed? lately with the instant worldwide knowledge of the web, exact copies are still winning, as people tend to vote for the artwork/linework, rather than original design, they are admiring the secondary artists skill rather than the concept?
So should you copy and post a pick you like I would suggest crediting "from an idea of ******" cos whatever you copy you will make it your own?

Also I think you need to be careful not to make it targeted at someone in particular, especially because she/he is not here to defend themselves. For myself if I do a direct line for line copy I will credit original poster. Also I will ask before I take

I mean actually take MY photos... as in copy and save the actual photo of my work and use it as your own. for display, promotion, etc.

Feel free to copy and be inspired... just leave my photos on the computer.

I've had photos lifted right off my website and posted to others websites and also used in a resume as their own work.... with my watermark still on the photo!

It looks like we are all guilty of copying or at least trying to copy in the beginning.

Lynnie I'm sorry your friend has been hurt over this. I would love to see the pictures side by side, but she took the pic out of her gallery, correct? I Googled her and a lot of her gallery pics look like a lot of other galleries I've seen. We all do the basic faces-butterfly, kitty, batman, spiderman, etc.

Is she(copier) a newbie? Is she popular in the FP world? Is it really going to cause damage to this other biz? Like Daizy, her copier is right down the street not on the other side of the world I just wish we could hear the other side of the story.

I hope this thread isn't stressing those newbies out! This place rocks!

I've only seen one other fight on here and both ladies were heard.
I've been to some forums that will eat you alive if you just say hi! (Great Dane Forum DOL)

I've been thinking about my designs and I'm not sure how to make my Pirate my own. There's only so many ways to do a Pirate It does make you think twice about doing something in fear of someone freaking out and making a public display. I just hope if I have offended someone, they come to me and let me know

Oh... I had to add that I AM getting that little quickening feeling now and again. heh

You know, when you're painting something, or even thinking about it.. and you think.. "Hmmmmmmmmm... I think this would look great"! said with a flourish of brush across the brow of your nephew.... Just remember not to say it aloud! laughing

Upon viewing many of my pictures.. I have realized that most on my site are my first attempts at those designs at all! Which means that in total, I've painted 1 or 2 of whatever I've painted of something.

.... First tiger, first butterfly, etc...
thinks it will be a LONG while before (if ever) anyone wants to copy me... *L*
And, yes, most are copies of others works.... Maybe when I get time to work on "design" as well as basic skills, I'll be able to post more "personal" images.

I DO promise to try harder to work at my own.
still getting technique/skills/etc down at the moment.... Just now I'm trying to work, & learn.
I feel that once I have the basics down, I'll be able to develop my own style... or, at the very least, add my 'flair' to whatever I'm painting.


Tash, I LOVE your butterfly!
my mouth is literally watering at the blending of blues & greens!!!!

See... I wanna try this.. but use the same colors! if you're ever around this area, you may note that the local new FP'er leans towards blues/greens... *g*

I agree with Nora, It's beautiful!

Shannon, unbelievable that someone would do that!!


CottonKandyClown, I think that there are going to always be those designs that are similar.. *s*

Rae, this poor newbie agree with each of your words. My limited English didn't allow me writing a post but you just said what I was thinking. I still don't have the skill to create my own designs (I'm too busy trying my brush go where I want and trying to get my teardrops seem like teardrops ) and I often copy designs from this forum or from another places. BUT I would never post them as if they were mine or I would never use them on my board. And, above all, I WOULD NEVER DO ANYTHING THAT HARMS YOU. You guys , and your wonderful work, make me love FP more and more and you encourage me to improve everyday.

artyfacesbyluz wrote:Oh, I forgot to mention that the artist who did Tyson's tattoo, sued Warner Bros. because they copied his tattoo, he wanted for the movie to be suspended, and then they warner said they will change the tattoo digitally, but the artist lost, the movie was launched with the tattoo and everything, and tattoo it is a permanent art.

I followed this very closely. There are a few aspects to this that are not mentioned here.
First off, the movie didn't copy it exactly. It was close, but not exactly.

Secondly, part of the reason why he didn't win is that his design was taken from Maori Te Moko art. The judge actually questioned him about the fact that he originally copied from another culture.

THEN there was the issue that he holds a copyright on a photo of his design but he did not file the proper paperwork to have the actual design copyright holding.



Thank you, Shannon. You said exactly how I feel.

What I find disappointing is that there are several pros and experienced painters on here saying that copying and using it for promo/contest/etc. is NOT okay and the newbies, instead of listening to the opinions and advice on changing the designs to make it your own, are arguing as to why they should continue to copy. That makes me sad.

CottonCandy- she's not a friend. She a well respected, highly known professional painter who teaches at large conventions. She actually has a very distinct style that is very much hers. I can pick out one of her designs in a room very easily, just as I can the Wolfs, Alex Hansen, Jinny, Mark Reid, Brady, etc. They all have a distinct style that made them professional but just because they are teaching at a convention or are in magazines or have videos on FABAIC does not mean that all of their designs are up for being copied. They give so much of themselves already for everyone else to progress. I don't see why we expect, need or assume it's okay to take ALL that they put out there.

And seriously, pop down into Where's the Beef and read how this affects and effects a painter when it's done in close proximity. Not. Cool.

As I said before, inspiration is one thing, copying is something totally different.

I do not post very often. I work ALOT and recently got out of full-time college classes as well. I have been painting for about 1 year but with sort of limited time, I feel newer at this than that. I want to say that I love this forum. There is so much information here and so many kind and helpful people. So many members that are willing to share their ideas and techniques and yes, even designs and inspirations to fellow members.

That being said, the first time I read a thread of this nature, I understood it. I really did. I get 100% where it is going. But when you are new here and people are so friendly and helpful and willing to share with you and then this is what you hear, it kind of knocks your socks off because then you don't know what to think. I felt so guilty about practicing with other member's designs,and honestly, I was not even taking pics because I was only painting on myself and I can't see without my glasses to get anything looking right , so most of my linework was practiced on an arm or leg, but when I did get a few pictures, they were pretty much knockoffs. They never look just alike, how could I possibly pull that off? Sometimes it's an old design we see, maybe a butterfly or flower and it's the color combos that make the design and that's really what we're after.

Anyway, I think after the first time I did read a thread like this, it really did convice me not to post many pics. I know that that is not a good decision for me to come to but I absolutley hate confrontation of any sort and try to keep it out of my life everywhere I possibly can. It is not because I am stealing pics or copying and am afraid to post. I have looked at so many great faces over the year I have been doing this that even if I come up with something I think is my own, it's probably not and I know someone will think I took theirs and didn't give them credit. That's how I honestly feel. I don't want to offend or hurt anyone here, even though I know we are supposed to post our work, show it to others, get constructive criticism and give inspiration. I just don't want to be the topic of one of these threads.

For my response on anything now, read Shannon's long post. She said exactly how I feel on the entire topic. If you can copy it, you can change it. Have faith in yourselves and your art for that.

I quoted this wrong and forgot to copy the name of the person who asked (I am so sorry!!!) but I'm in a bit of a hurry.
"Is she(copier) a newbie? Is she popular in the FP world? Is it really going to cause damage to this other biz?"

No, she's not. Yes, she is. They are a few hours apart in distance.


And seriously, I am so hurt about being accused of picking fights that I debated closing this down all together.

I was asking for people's thoughts on copying vs. inspiration. There you go. That's it.
I was shocked and saddened by the amount of people who believe that copying and then using it as more than a learning tool is okay and I expressed that.
There ya go.

Whew. This is a hot topic!

Tash, I would love to know what you used. Thank you so much for offering.

P.S. It's Nanna Niki - not Nora (Nanna is grandmother in Italian)((Nonna is also used)