Oh No! Tag Neons!!

Found this list where FDA list approved UV colours:
http://www.fda.gov/ForIndustry/ColorAdditives/ColorAdditivesinSpecificProducts/InCosmetics/UCM110032

And here where they say all the colours and if they are legal or not. Sorry, I don't have time to check them all against the products.
http://www.fda.gov/Cosmetics/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/VoluntaryCosmeticsRegistrationProgramVCRP/OnlineRegistration/ucm109084.htm

I just checked wolfe neon rainbow against the first list...half the colors are listed for FDA approval the ultramarines were not 77007....not really still sure what that means though?

Sophie, I am with you. I feel like if I say I am using FDA approved products I can't use the neons. This is so upsetting because it is sold as face paint.

I think if people decide to keep the neons they can't really say using FDA approved products. That is just not ethical to do. You can re word saying Using professional face paint products or maybe we use a combination of professional face paint products, make -ups, and special fx materials on all of our design work. We use internationally known products like Wolfe, Tag, FDX and so on. Well with whatever you use.

I am still sorting out what I want to do for myself here. I would like to know what is actually the issue with the neons directly but can't seem to really get a good answer. I don't want to use something that is harmful obviously! But is it that or that is simply not "approved" which seems to be the case.

All of this is giving me a headache from over thinking it! lOL!

After reading Anna's post (Clash the Clown) she says that TAG is working her to help "make right" to the people who purchased the TAG neons before the labels were in place. I don't know what that means, but maybe by the time it's all over, all the companies will have to do the same through their perspective distributors. What a mess though for the distributors.

Something else I wonder about is since formaldehyde off-gasses and our face paints dry hard, if we leave the tops off for extended periods of time, would the formaldehyde dissipate leaving us with a safer product? I am not a chemist, but I do know that over time, even that new carpet and new car smell goes away (which is usually the formaldehyde in it if I'm not mistaken), and the formaldehyde level then is much lower. Just a thought, be it correct or not.

I don't think it's possible to have FDA approved products since so may companies have not done the testing. On my site it says, " We us professional quality cosmetic grade face paints and glitters."

I'm still torn on whether to pull the neons or not. Like Terina says, it would be great to know if the neons were safe or not. Are they bad or just untested.... Grrrr! Most my neons are dfx splits that I made & Kryolan. Right now I'm avoiding eyes & not using them on younger kids. I may just use them for club events & body painting.
I'm very frustrated...

" We us professional quality cosmetic grade face paints and glitters."

I like that wording. I have a busy weekend so I decide to put off the search and make more calls on Monday. I feel pretty comfortable with the fact that the insurance will cover if it is sold as face paint. Still dying to know what the actual issue is....spoke with someone today that told me they were trying to get those silly labels removed. So, feeling way better about it.

I would be more concerned if I had never used any of the products before...I mean all of the DFX cakes that I have say do not use around the eyes even if they are not neon. So, what is with that? I think that most people use it all over the face in all colors. I am talking black, white, whatever....am I wrong on this?

I will say that I personally prefer to use Snazaroo white/ black on kids eyes for designs cause my daughter has gotten the wolfe white in her eyes before. It was painful for her. The Snaz didn't bother her. But the point is everyone using the make up as simply that...make up right?

I've gotten dfx black in my eye. It didn't hurt & looked pretty funny. My eye went all black & I couldn't see out of the eye till the "fog" went away. It was very weird.
I don't paint near kid's eyes with a brush. I do sponge. I only use Paradise white & black in these situations. Mainly because I know how hard it is to get dfx black off the eyes.
I hope you find out something.

Yes I usually sponge unless I am putting eyeliner on...I let her load the paint and didn't check to make sure the sponge was not too wet. Well...it was and ran into her eyes bless her heart. She too said it was cloudy. It looked like something was wrong with her eye cause it was all milky LOL...poor kid. It took a good day before she looked like she had matching eyes. I will keep everyone posted on what I get told.

Let's all remember the 'lead in paint' issue that everyone freaked out about.

Sources of formaldehyde

* Fabrics treated with formaldehyde resins and in which some free formaldehyde remains. Formaldehyde resins provide the unique qualities of the following fabrics:
o Permanent press
o Anti-cling, anti-static, anti-wrinkle and anti-shrink finishes
o Chlorine-resistant finishes
o Stiffening on lightweight nylon knits
o Waterproof finishes
o Perspiration proof finishes
o Moth proof and mildew resistant finishes
o Suede and chamois
* Cosmetics and toiletries including fingernail polishers and hardeners, antiperspirants, makeup, bubble bath, bath oils, shampoos, creams, mouthwashes and deodorants. In many cases formaldehyde is used as a preservative.
* Household cleansers, disinfectants and polishes
* Paper products — formaldehyde is used to improve the water resistance, grease resistance, shrink resistance and other characteristics of paper
* Building materials — urea-formaldehyde glue or adhesive is used in pressed wood products such as particle board, plywood and MDF
* Medications including wart remedies, anhidrotics, medicated creams, orthopaedic casts and root canal preparation disinfectant
* Paints, primers and paint-stripping agents
* Embalming fluid and as a preservative for laboratory specimens
* Formaldehyde is released in the smoke from burning wood, coal, charcoal, cigarettes, natural gas and kerosene

Apparently the hubub that is being made about the NEONs just seems like something started to make us panic. It seems like whatever is making them "harmful" is the same stuff that we are surrounded by every day.

Again the question still lingers, Are the neons harmful or just untested?

From the list above anyone who bathes, wears deoderant or fingernail polish ect..., which is all of us and all of our customers, are already coming into contact with what is suppossedly making the neons "harmful." Just my 2 cents.

-Metina

Psalmbook wrote:I don't think it's possible to have FDA approved products since so may companies have not done the testing. On my site it says, " We us professional quality cosmetic grade face paints and glitters."

I'm still torn on whether to pull the neons or not. Like Terina says, it would be great to know if the neons were safe or not. Are they bad or just untested.... Grrrr! Most my neons are dfx splits that I made & Kryolan. Right now I'm avoiding eyes & not using them on younger kids. I may just use them for club events & body painting.
I'm very frustrated...

Linda, your wording is perfect!
I am going to hold off on the neons for now and see what happens

It's really hard to not see both sides of the story...some could even compare it to using acrylics, but since I havent seen any reactions to it nor has anyone told me of any severe reactions to it, I think I will continue to use it. I HAVE seen plenty of reactions (not allergenic as that is possible with ANY face paint) to acrylics, even on my face so I know that that isnt safe. I also look to the experts in our fields: Wolfe Bros, Pashur, Lucy, etc...to guide us and to know what's up as they use these products ALL THE TIME ALL OVER THE WORLD.

As mentioned on FB, I think those of us who smoke (i dont) or are near 2nd hand smoking (i hate when that happens especially at parties) or its fragrance are in worse danger than using this product.

If your afraid of your prolonged exposure to the neons, well you can always wear the latex gloves.

I wouldn't let the cigarette smoke bother you... you are sucking s=down 1000's more chemicals from traffic. The pollution caused by cars, trucks and buses is worse then any cigarette smoke and you breath it all the time.

I agree this is all a blow up over nothing - probably started by the companies that don't make them when they realized how popular they are.

Official Company Stance from DFX

"I can't speak for Tag, but as far as Diamond FX neon colors - the blue, violet and white do have the FDA approval for cosmetic use, that is the reason they are more expensive. The other colors are considered for special effects and not for cosmetic use. When a classification of cosmetic use is given is because people may use it everyday as their usual "personal care routine" The glow in the dark is not intended for every day use and it has not been tested for that purpose, that is the reason it is not approved as such by the FDA. It doesn't mean it is dangerous, it just means that it wasn't meant to use as an everyday cosmetic and it has not been tested as such (testing is very expensive). By law we have to make the distinction and write that in the labels." Elena Bonifaz, DFX USA

Hi All,
This is Anna Wilinski (Clash), originator from the face paint blog about what the warnings mean on our regular neon cakes. I'd like to start by saying that I had no intention to create a "panic" about neons. My biggest point was that we may be liable for using paints that are labeled "not a cosmetic" on other people, and that shops should let us know that the ingredients are not all FDA approved, especially for those customers who post on their sites that they only use Cosmetic Grade FDA approved ingredients. The labels should also contain these warnings, and TAG and DFX have both sent out products with out these warnings (DFX with no labels on the paints at all, to no ingredients on the paints, to no warnings on the paints) and TAG, (I understand they are newer to the market in the U.S.) did not put the proper warnings until NOW. They will now come with the warnings.

My second concern was that no company had a clear understanding of the Formaldehyde content when we asked about it. TAG just sent me an e-mail this morning, and we are now clear that the Free Formaldahyde in their paints, from their understanding, is below the levels allowed by the FDA. We read Formaldehyde Polymers on the ingredient list from DFX, which was well above the limit for Formaldehyde, but now we understand that this is a compund that contains formaldehyde and other ingredients. We looked into this before the blog post but we got no clear answer what amount of free Formaldehyde was in them even though we asked about this before we posted our blog. DFX did not see that their was a difference, like TAG did. From what I know now, Formaldehyde is not the concern for TAG, and probably also not for DFX. It is only the pigments in the regular neon cakes that have not been tested. This means that the FDA hasn't determined them safe or dangerous. That is a little better, but legally we are still in the same boat when using them on the public. (This does not having anything to do with the DFX NEON WHITE< VIOLET AND BLUE)
Kryolan has been selling these paints for decades, and I wonder why the factories that produce the Pigments haven't gotten them tested? Is the money really the issue, or is it the fact that face painters just keep using them with out demanding the testing be done first?
Also, to Elena's comment on what cosmetic means, this is what the FDA site states about cosmetics "according to the FDA The Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act1 (FD&C Act) defines cosmetics by their intended use, as "articles intended to be rubbed, poured, sprinkled, or sprayed on, introduced into, or otherwise applied to the human body...for cleansing, beautifying, promoting attractiveness, or altering the appearance" [FD&C Act, sec. 201(i)]. Among the products included in this definition are skin moisturizers, perfumes, lipsticks, fingernail polishes, eye and facial makeup preparations, shampoos, permanent waves, hair colors, toothpastes, and deodorants, as well as any material intended for use as a component of a cosmetic product."

It says nothing about cosmetics are only considered so if they are used daily, or on a regular basis. Special Effects is not a category for the FDA. It means nothing to them.

I am really sad that some people do not get that the main point that many face painters have ordered paints, and been left in shock and confusion because they get these regular neon paints with warnings that basically say "You just bought something that really isn't facepaint" Shouldn't we know this before we buy them, shouldn't the companies really tell us the whole story so that we can make the best decisions for ourselves? Shouldn't the manufacturers and vendors have a clear understanding about what they are selling?

As you can see, I didn't have a clear understanding (but I did have a warning for a year straight once a customer made a point of it), even after sending numerous annoying e-mails asking for help. I am very proud of TAG for doing the research needed and addressing this situation right away. I expect that the publishing of the blog post helped get the attention, and though we did have an error in our post about the level of free formaldehyde, we finally got some action towards better labels and hopefully more stores posting the warnings.

If you really want those neon pigments tested, please let your manufacturers know. If you want to make sure that you are not liable for using them in the U.S., call your insurance company and tell them WHAT THE LABELS SAY (or should say if they were mislabeled), and see what they say then. If we know that we are using a product that hasn't been determined safe, or unsafe by the FDA, put on the pressure so that we can find this out.

I hope you understand that we called the FDA, companies in charge of designing FDA compliant labels, companies that deal with the paints before they get to the manufacturers, lawyers, and we read all that we could handle in a 6 month period of time. We did not just post the blog to scare people, we sell the paints too, for heaven's sake. We just wanted to make sure we were selling something safe, and we wanted to be able to answer our customers questions about where they could use the paints.

Thank you to everyone for getting involved in this discussion. I still feel that it is one worth having until the situation is totally resolved.

ClashAnna wrote:. TAG just sent me an e-mail this morning, and we are now clear that the Free Formaldahyde in their paints, from their understanding, is below the levels allowed by the FDA. We read Formaldehyde Polymers on the ingredient list from DFX, which was well above the limit for Formaldehyde, but now we understand that this is a compund that contains formaldehyde and other ingredients.

First off, I want to clear up that I didn't mean you specifically Anna were trying to start a panic. Honestly I thought that maybe this all started from other paint companies making a stink and then someone like yourself took the reigns to be responsible. But so from what you are stating above, both TAG and DFX are safe????

I guess what bothers me is that there is SO MUCH being said, that doesn't really mean a lot. I praise you for your long post and blog entry, but wonder what it all boils down to. These are some things that I thought all of this might mean.

1. All neons give you cancer
2. All neons contain formaldahyde
3. Some of the neons contain formaldahyde
4. The neon blue, white and violet are completely safe
5. The neon blue, white and violet are the only ones that the FDA has tested
6. All of the colors are safe if you don't use them too much
7 All of the colors are unsafe for younger children
ect...ect...

I guess I wish we could just get a firm statement of All are safe, all are unsafe. My head is just spinning right now and I don't feel like we are any further along than when this all started.

But I totally agree with you Anna, that we as resellers shouldn't have been sold something only to receive them and see the for "special effects only" labels.


-Metina
What is really weird to me is why only test 3 of the 8 or so colors? What is up with that?

Metina wrote:
What is really weird to me is why only test 3 of the 8 or so colors? What is up with that?

From what I understand..... The neon blue, white and violet only contain pigments that are approved for cosmetic use by the FDA and do not contain pigments that fall onto the batch exempt list.

Hi Metina,
1. We don't know if all neons are safe or unsafe since the FDA hasn't tested the pigments.
2. We do know that according to DFX, their Neon White, Violet, and Blue contain ingredients that have all been tested by the FDA and have been all approved to be used in cosmetics.
3. The FDA only approves ingredients, NOT products.
4. TAG and DFX contain formaldahyde, but it is at a level approved by the FDA for cosmetics.
5. Since the pigments haven't been tested, we do not know if they are unsafe or safe depending on how much you use them.
6. My comment on my blog about children and Adults is that for my legal protection, I can have an adult sign a waiver about getting painted with neons, while I cannot ask that of a kid, nor would I want to ask that of a child's parents. I would be embarrassed to ask a parent if I could use something not tested and determined safe for use on skin, on their child.
7. I will keep you posted on anything else that we find out, and make sure that the companies know how important proper labeling is on their products, so that we are not so confused for decades to come.

Metina,
I wish it was more simple, and that we just knew what to do with these paints, but...we are left with following our instincts in this case, and making the best decision for ourselves and those we work with. We can't expect a clear conclusion with out demanding one, and not just accepting and finding comfort in mixed responses from long time artists, vendors, distributors or manufacturers. The research is a complicated headache, and I am bound to make errors, but I'd like to know as much as I can, and hopefully clear up the errors and let others know too.

I'm glad this discussion is going. It's important that what we use is safe or we might as well save tons of money & go back to acrylics(NEVER).

Thank you Anna & Metina!

Hello Everybody..
first, please forgive me that my english is perhaps not so great.

wow what a lot of discussion is going on here on Neon and FDA and so on..
Let me introduce myself first.
My name is Eugenie and some of you might know me, some of you do not.
Most who do, know me because i am at DFX!
And without wanting to repeat very much of what is going on here, it is not all my place and i can not answer all your questions, I will try alway's to do my best to answer questions to at my best and have honorable intentions.

ONE: i'm a person, not a company!
TWO: i give information when asked but sometimes also need time to check some things.
Three: i just been quit ill, still recovering, so bear with me..

First please;

-Metina
What is really weird to me is why only test 3 of the 8 or so colors? What is up with that?


No Metina, it is not 3 out of 8. Diamond FX had made 3 new colors Neon FDA approved, that have nothing to do with the colors that are the regular Neon.
As soon as we got the FDA Approved colors, ( and we have them for over 2-3 years now) we sent out a message to all our vendors worldwide, even in Europe.
The price of this Neon is a more expensive, because the ingredients are so different from the regular Neon Paint.
But therefor, they are safe for childeren, safe for skin, you could even eat it if you wanted to ( SMILE)

But what we find very strange, is that the interest in buying the FDA Approved Neon was up to Zero. Non of the vendors wanted to spent the more price it had. ( no i do not mean that in a nasty way)
So the whole point we had, in bringing out a save product, was was for us from that moment on ( we felt at least..) a lost battle, because nobody in the US was interessted and rather wanted to buy the cheaper Neon.
We never quit understood wy?

We are still ( i think ) the only company who even has FDA approved Neon wanted to stick their neck out for it.
And why there are only 3 colors? Because with the White Neon ( FDA APPROVED only i mean) you can make all the neon colors you want.
We never made that a secret, we never hide it.
It was a cool way of "how to make your own safe NEON' with all the colors in your kit.

Problem was, that the approved Neon did not have the brite neon effect that the Not approved regular Neon has. its a litle more subdued
That is why we ( from 2009 ) stated on the website and containers, that the use of Neon should only be as a special effect product.



Perhaps it is naiev, but i ( personaly) don't understand what is wrong with the frase 'special effect'.
When you paint a face, you don't paint the whole face or body in Neon and just use it to highlight it.
That is so special about Neon. To make a special effect.
But that is my personal opinion.
Also, you may use it in hair, to create a Neon effect. extra bonus.. ( am i wrong again?)

There is an alternative, but it has been neglacted for 2-3 years, and now it is an issue. I don't understand that.
if you want to use a safe product, you buy a safe product.
And no, we are not getting rich from the paint, ( as i read somewhere in the earliere pages)

Both TAG and DFX work hard, to create a product where a lot of people have fun with. That can bring fun and joy.
Now some people are acting like we are wolfs that bring harmfull products to you on purpose.
That is not fair!

Anna has given us a lot of information, and we don't want to bring 'just another label that say's ; juse this.. do that.. '
No; we want to use that info to make a label, that contains good info for you.
And sorry, but these things you can not do in a week or month time.

When customers want more information on a label, a producer has to be carefull that they give the right information. Also the good advises and not just for you in the USA, but also in Europe, in Asia and Australia.
Diamond FX is not an US brand, it is an European Brand, so we have to make sure our labels are good for everybody.

Also on the use of Neon, People have to take some responsiblity on what they use.
Have you ever considered that a well known company in the US makes its own rainbowcakes? What do they say on their labels? what paint do they use and what safety do you get?
I have seen the labels, but it doesn't say anything.
I have no idea what paint it contains, but still it is one of the best selling products.
This same company still describes my collegues ( the 'W' brand ) Neon;

Wolfe FX make up is safe for the face and body and made using FDA approved and compliant ingredients.

So.. am i crazy? ( probably!)
It is not true! it implies, that the neon is safe..
Kryolan doesn't even give information about Neon anymore

Also; have you ever considered Glitter.. Bling products? ( or is that a brand name? i'm sorry if it is..)
All kind of glitter you use on childeren. Do you realy check al your Glitter? Are you sure it is cosmetic glitter and not just grade 3 glitter?
i know my glitter is the best. It has all the approval we could get. How about yours?
Does it have the cosmetic grade? I know that is very very expensive.
you have 4 different types of cosmetic glitter only. But what about glitter and Neon?
ever considered that? Does that glitter contain Colouring agents that can be used in all cosmetic products except those intended to come in contact with mucous membrane? or not?

Henna!
Also a product quit often used in our community!
Never had a FDA approval. Used for 1000 years in all Asian and Arab states. I never heard anything bad from it.
( i even saw you have a good forum here discussing it!)
So why the Neon -shock? There are so many products that are good to use and contain products or ingredients you never thought of.
You smear ( excuse the word) it on your own face and body every day, without thinking.
You let sometimes let a label be the judge of your own good sence.

I saw somebody saying about the warning NOT INTENDED FOR COSMETIC APPLICATION";
When I saw the sticker, I picked it off the bottom of my DFX neon rainbow, for fear that a mother would pick it up and see it and freak out on me. But that made me feel guilty or criminal or something. So, now I'm using the TAG neon rainbow which says "manufactured with skin safe ingredients" and "keep away from eyes". I do feel a little better using that product, if only for the plausible deniability it affords.

Sorry, but is that not a bit foolish? is that not being a bit hypocrite? Nothing on TAG, please!! i don't mean to be disrespectful to TAG, but
is 'manufactured with skin safe … better for who??
for your clients???
sorry that is label-mafia for me.
I would feel safe, knowing that my product was safe.
The neon from TAG was the same 'not approved as the Neon from DFX and this person let the naming of a label be the judge of her own good sence and honesty?


Last thing, When people email me or Alex ( our director and the owner of DFX) saying that they want the ingredients, we normally don't give them.
Its like letting people look into your kitchen.
Also, when people tel me to give information for their government, i tell them to let their government contact us officially like it should, and we will prompt every information that they ask ( like some countries have and received)
But i did put a download button on our website, ( near the newsflash items) where i have the MSDS for the Neon for everybody as a pdf file for you to download.
I will this week also put one for the regular facepaint to.

I wish you al real joy to facepainting and if needed, contact us. We do have a customerservice, use it when you need it!
Sorry if i sounded a bit harsh. was not the intention!

Have a nice day
Eugenie

Hi Eugenie. Welcome to the forum and thank you for all your info. I know you and the rest from DFX are very concerned about making products that are as safe as possible and that the labels are often a lot more detailed about ingredients than other companies. (plus one of the few brands without perfumes and parabenes!) But as you - and the rest of the forum - know, I would love an ingredient list on all the products, even the small ones. And it would be practical with an ingredient list on the shop's and manufacturers homepages, so when shopping online, it is no secret what you buy. It would also be practical for the companies that sell their products in a box with the ingredients on. Unless you keep that box (and who does that), it is hard figuring out later, what is in it.
Again: this is not just for DFX - but that is the brand I am using - but applies for all the companies. I know the vendors at conventions are not always very happy to see me, since before I want to try their products, I read the ingredients - or ask about it. And most of the time I return the products on the shelf with a question why they use perfume and parabenes in them.

All I have to say is "Made in China" - those 3 words alone scare me!

Living in Australia, almost everything in shops are made in China and these products are usually cheap, cheap, cheap! I question what standards TAG meet? If it compares to other 'made in China' products, the standards are LOW to NON-EXISTANT!

I'm only a beginner, but my gut instinct says . . .better to be safe than sorry.

Ii have used TAG at a recent school fete - the kit was supplied by the school. I voiced my opinion but as the school has a small budget they went with the cheapest.

Can anyone tell why Paradise isn't more popular amongst the experienced USA painters? I would be interested on your thoughts????