percentage split when working under another face painter

Hi All,
I am in need of some advice.
I was wondering what you think a fair percentage rate would be for another face painting business to hire me on at?
Here is the scenario...
There is another woman in my town who has a really well marketed established face and body art business.
I have worked with her at a few festivals where we each used our own supplies and we each kept our own profits (at ppf events) or split the profits (for corporate events). I did not market myself though but worked under her and marketed her business.
This seemed fair to me.

She recently approached me and wanted to hire me to paint with her over Halloween weekend. She offered to pay me $15 an hour. She has two other employees that she pays $10 an hour but they use her supplies. She offered me $15 an hour and I would use my own supplies. Obviously I said that I thought that was pretty low.

Until recently I have just dabbled with face painting as a hobby and now I am inspired to expand. I have a University degree in fine arts. I have the passion and the talent. I believe that there is a market for this kind of work in my town and more than enough jobs for us both to prosper and profit.
The problem is that I am finding it challenging to market myself. She has an in with the City and gets all the community event gigs.

I would still be open to working under her business at times but would like to come up with a more fair wage for myself. I know galleries do a percentage split and I wondered what you all thought would be a fair percentage split. Keeping in mind that when I work under her I am marketing her business and not my own.

Thanks so much,
Rose

I think $15.00 is WAY too low if you are using your own supplies and can't even promote yourself. If she wants to pay you that little then I would ask her to provide the supplies. Essentially, if she is paying her employees $10.00 per hour and she provides the supplies, then she is only giving you $5.00 an hour for all your supplies..paint, glitter, insurance if you have it, sponges, brushes, plus clean up after.....Not a fair deal. I would definitely try to work out something much better. I've never been in that situation so I have no idea what to ask for though.....maybe come up with a rate per face and keep track of how many faces you paint?

Well, It sounds CRAZY low to me... Rather depends on your market and what she is charging the customer. 50% would be a customary Agent's fee for instance, and that might be a way to approach it.

It seems like you don't want to sever the relationship, so maybe say something like: Normally, I would want $50 an hour, and if I give you a 50% agent's fee that would be $25 and hour. You have always treated me well, and I really appreciate your including me, but could you come any closer to that rate?

This way, it leaves door open for negotiating without digging your heals in.

Now, keep in mind that the marketing IS indeed worth something, and not having to actually GET the gigs is nice.

The rate is truly low, but I also don't know the rates in your area. What we pay our staff depends on the gig. Is she paying you cash or paying ss & tax on you ?
We provided the kit to start each of our painters due to the fact we want quality, then pay them half of a gig if it is a cash situation. However, we then ask them to put a percentage back into their kit. We want to pay well so each one will put in the time to improve and sparkle when they are working under our name. They are not allowed to work within a 60 mile radius on their own since we provided the training, costumes, and kit. Different arrangements are used by different people depending on the unique situations. We want to be generous and have each job be an adventure where we all strive to achieve more and have FUN together...yet make a real profit. Our staff even willingly do non-profit with us because they know the more we grow the more they grow. Good Luck

Do you want to be a professional working on your own or do you want to work for someone else? That's the question I would ask myself. One of the reasons I work as a facepainter is that I get to work for myself. I'm not answering to anyone else, and I have the ability to expand and grow. I would never work for $15.00 an hour. That's ludicrous. That's what you pay the 15 year old to do your glitter tattoos, not what you pay someone who has invested time and energy into their own kit and education. (this is obviously just my humble opinion). Obviously, if you are providing all of the training and tools, it's different. skjfunny, is the 60 mile rule forever or just until they decide they no longer want to work under you?

I agree with LeapingLizards....leave the door open for fair negotiations by letting her know that you would like to continue to work with her, but need to insure that it is it worth it for you as well.

Dear rosecanino:
This woman is not even paying you minimum Canadian wages after you deduct for your very expensive paint, brushes, glitter, travel expenses, insurance and, last but not least... Your Artistry.
I pay my apprentices $20/hour to start. I do not think Sarnia pricing is that much different from Toronto.
How much does this woman get paid per hour for the gig?
My lowest price that I offer for not-for-profit organizations is $50/hour.
In the meantime, arm yourself with your business cards, paint your face and go do the grocery shopping, run errands, wander around at Canadian Tire, WalMart. Hand out your card to anyone admiring your artistic face paint.
Get your name and face out into the public eye. Put up business cards & flyers at local coffee shops, stores catering to children and mommies.
I know our paints are expensive and we do need to make money in order to make our way in the world. I think that you are being offered slave wages from this woman.
Lisa

Thanks so much for all your advice.
It is a helpful confirmation of what I was already feeling in my gut.

I pay my assistant painters $25/hour... they are working for me, with me, using my kit, under my insurance and sometimes I even pick them up. And I usually take them to dinner after the gig. I only have about half a dozen gigs a year where I need additional painters at this point.

None of the gals I hire are working painters... they only paint with me and all have other jobs, etc.

I bill out additional painters at $50, pay them $25 and the rest is to cover overhead and supplies.

If I was asking a "pro" to work with me I would ask what they wanted... and would quote that to the customer... we both deserve our full rate.

In my case people work WITH me, I don't SEND people out on jobs. I only take what I can work myself.

That all being said... $15/hour? In my town you start at $12/hour at McDonald's...

My assistants are my daughters. I pay them $20/hr, but I also maintain & supply their kits & insurance. I'm also their transportation. When they start doing these things I'll pay them full wage & take a 10% agent fee from then. If you want to be a professional, you have to let the agents know they mus treat you as a professional.
I've been working for 6 yrs in a city with some big competition. At 1st they had all the big jobs, but as the years have gone by, more people know of me & my business has grown. It just takes time & now I rarely agent out to other entertainers(I have no time too).

Facesforfun, the 60 mile radius is for a 5 year period from when they start with us. It is a pretty general non-competitive agreement used by many dance schools in our area.

Ouch. $15/hr is insulting! If she is a business owner herself she would understand if you tell her it doesn't make sense economically for you to work for such a low rate. Tell her what your rate is, maybe give her a slight discount on it if she can promise you lots of work...but her job then is to mark up your rate when quoting the client. That or offer you something reasonable that you're willing to work for. Don't ever be worried about her getting all the gigs. There are so many more events than just the local community/city events....nearby cities, birthday parties, company picnics, etc etc. All it takes is a couple birthday parties on your own with your business cards out to get a couple more clients, then a few more, and it'll grow over time!

15 dollars is crazy . I agree with shannon . My sister often hires extra painters , younger girls using same deal as shannon including meal and transportaion . She would never ask a pro to work for that and use their own product thats just crazy .

Rosecanino,

I just looked at your web site. Is that your web site. If it is you have everything you need. It's always nice to have others to work with because you never know when a really big gig will come along and you will need some one to share a gig with you. If I ask some one to paint with me whether at a festival or paid gig we share the it all we pay the line manager together and who ever got the gig takes a little for insurance, taxes, and then we just split it. Like Shannon said, Its not that often. If you are capable of getting your own gigs, then go for it. If that is your web site. It's wonderful, its represents the experience you dream of having when hiring a face painter. I get gigs and don't even have my site up and running yet.

maybe you can get some gigs and hire her what you would like to be paid, in order to set the standard between you.
Good Luck
Laurie

My website is rosecanino.com... I assume that is the site you were looking at Laurie. And yes I guess I do have everything I need to be independent.

I wanted to stay open to working with this woman at times as it has been mutually beneficial for us in the past.
But I am not willing to work for such low wages.
I am learning a lot about speaking my truth and using my voice.

I have an apprentice and I had her painting at a gig with me within 48 hours of teaching her (but she has an art degree - major help!). I gave her $50/hour AND about $300-400 of my supplies.

But sometimes I can be overly generous when I like someone

I would be far too embarrassed to offer you $15 or even $25 per hour. That is a joke, and borderline insulting (though likely not meant as an insult), IMO. But she is likely a *much* better businesswoman than I am, and making a better profit. But I am sleeping WELL at night

Shannon Fennell wrote:I pay my assistant painters $25/hour... they are working for me, with me, using my kit, under my insurance and sometimes I even pick them up. And I usually take them to dinner after the gig. I only have about half a dozen gigs a year where I need additional painters at this point.

None of the gals I hire are working painters... they only paint with me and all have other jobs, etc.

I bill out additional painters at $50, pay them $25 and the rest is to cover overhead and supplies.

If I was asking a "pro" to work with me I would ask what they wanted... and would quote that to the customer... we both deserve our full rate.

In my case people work WITH me, I don't SEND people out on jobs. I only take what I can work myself.

That all being said... $15/hour? In my town you start at $12/hour at McDonald's...

absolutley agree, you should be on equal pay or a good rate with everything supplied. I don't like working with other peoples kit so I tend to just with my rate of pay.I think she is taking advantage.

I agree with the above posters too.

I haven't needed to use additional painters yet, but if I did, I would find out their rates and quote that to the organizer.

If I was hiring someone to come and help me and I was receiving an additional fee for them being there, I would probably pay them half of whatever I was receiving additionally, keeping the other half for overhead and expenses (the kit/etc.)

As I said tho', I've not had to do that yet and would probably change things up when I saw the reality of the situation - to me it would be important that everyone is happy if possible and I'd want to reward the painter's willingness to help me then and ensure their willingness to help again in the future.