Tips for working for tips!

Breathe all ... and a big group hug!

Rthling....I agree to her observations. .. don't get me wrong. I even said so in my first comment.

It is the misinformation about the caste system and the average Indian that bothers me.
These are stories and I think I have the right to tell her and everybody else....that these stories are absolutely not true.

How is the caste system, spitting, sticking chewing gum, pecking on lower castes in India relavant to Indians tipping in Canada with an Canadian Face painter?
I fail to see the connection. .. or any relevance. Do you?

codegirl -
Totally. Most of all in Vancouver, it's split into many different districts where some neighborhoods are Chinese, others Greek, other Indian etc. Richmond is like the 2nd china town with out all the tourist attraction stuff. There is even a shopping mall where i kid you not, that white people can't shop at. They just refuse to serve you, with the exception being if you are there with a friend of another race. There is even a well known restaurant where they don't serve white people. They don't outright say it of course but they ignore your table, serving others that walk in after you, if you get food it's the wrong order, or it's cold. The message is pretty clear, and it's not just from one persons experience, the online reviews were staggering. Not even sure if it's still in business.

In Vancouver it's very common to meet people who don't speak any English at all and have lived here for YEARS. It's a port city, so there are a lot of immigrants. Again I stress NOT a bad thing. But it is still a 'thing; none the less, and pretending it doesn't exist is silly.

Joshi -
Oh for the love of, are you still on about this? 
No I haven't been to India, but that doesn't matter, I can still read and research. I never lived in the 19th Century either, but that doesn't mean I don't know a lot about it.
Why in the flying tarnation are you taking this is a person insult against YOU? You seemed to miss the part where i said (many times in fact) that not all people are the same, and not everyone is like that. So when I say NOT EVERYONE IS LIKE THAT,  why do you hear "OMG she's saying 'I'M' Like that!"
Sorry but THAT is what is truly ridiculous.

Also how to you think you are not being a hypocrite when you also said you would never work for tips at a Chinese event?

Did I say Canada is perfect? LOL HARDLY I mean have you seen the guy in charge? Have you ever met a Calgarian red neck? Or a spaced out BC hippie? Don't get any Canadian started on Quebec lol.
Canada! Our flag is the maple leaf, don't mess with us or we might.. shrivel up and blow away? Canada! The only country where some one bumps into YOU and you end up being the one saying sorry.
I could go on and on here.

As for first hand knowledge, I have it. I don't need to go to India to have it, I need only go to Surrey lol. (the Indian area of the city). Let me be brutally honest, I was tip toeing but honestly 9 out of 10 Indian people over the age of 35 have acted rude and shitty to me or my husband when we are face painting. Over our shoulder telling us what to do, demanding more, not wanting to pay full price, or saying the ramp on his truck costs extra. BUT people under that age I have found are more likely to be polite, nice, and friendly. Things that in CANADA are part of our culture. MANNERS, which are ingrained into OUR culture, and we notice if they are lacking. (even from Americans, no offence )

Again, did I say that ALL people follow a pecking order in India? Did I say that ALL people spit on people, and leave their gum on seats? NO. However I have read about it a few times, in fact here's an article written BY an Indian person saying what i said.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/opinion/edit-page/We-are-a-rude-people/articleshow/1674607.cms

What you have to understand, that in Canada if some one spit on some one else from a bus even ONCE it would probably come close to making the news.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/cape-dorset-man-with-tb-acquitted-for-spitting-on-cop-1.2679315

Do i know how common stuff like that is in India? No, but to even read of it happening AT ALL in a public place is something of note, so I shared it. You asked how it's relevant, so here's your answer - awareness. Sure the spitting thing might not be as common as the author of that article spelled it out to be, but the fact that is happens, and that there is even a little bit of a structured caste system at all is a wealth of knowledge to be aware of when dealing with people from differing cultures then yourself. To know that that might be how they grew up, or how other towns and cities in their country did things is indeed good to know. Do you judge them for it? No. The entire purpose is understanding, and to NOT take it personally or be shocked when confronted with another culture that is different from yours. Such as right now with you and me. In Canada we poke fun at ourselves all the time, and many of us seem to be rather self aware about our country and it's faults and flaws, so we see no problem in talking about them because we are so used to being open about it. In turn you are right now adapting to a new culture in the US. Currently you are in the U.S. state of Tennessee (which i HAVE been to btw since that seems to matter to you), and as a southern state I know it has a long history of talking about how awesome they are, generally through a country music medium. I have also lived in small towns and know what they can be like.

I might not have been to India, but a person doesn't NEED to have been there in order to experience a taste of it. Just because you are FROM India doesn't make you the authority, same as how you don't have to be a chef to tell when the meal doesn't taste right. :/

P.S. Don't accuse me of not knowing 'heads of tails' of anything. That's very rude.
If indeed what I'm saying is misinformation by all means cite your sources like I have and correct me. I'm not afraid to be wrong. I love being wrong because it means I just got smarter.

rthling - 

"it's a call to notice your surrounding environment, and do what works for the situation"

THANK YOU, yes that's all I was trying to say.

------------------

Now if we are quite done talking about this topic, I would like my hijacked thread to be back on topic. I won't be addressing any more responses about this, so IF you feel the need to continue, please contact me in Private Message if you still think I "don't know heads or tails about anything."

Forest-Fairy wrote:
Did I say Canada is perfect? LOL HARDLY I mean have you seen the guy in charge? Have you ever met a Calgarian red neck? Or a spaced out BC hippie? Don't get any Canadian started on Quebec lol.
Canada! Our flag is the maple leaf, don't mess with us or we might.. shrivel up and blow away? Canada! The only country where some one bumps into YOU and you end up being the one saying sorry.
I could go on and on here.

I know that you want this to go back on topic but this TOTALLY made me LOL very loud... glad no one else is home. So so so SO Canadian!

Living and eating are two different things. There is no comparison and for that same reason, yes, you've got to visit a place and live there to judge them.
The article you cited was an attempt by the author to highlight the lack of law and order.
These are not things that happen everyday. It was wrong of you to address it as something that represents an average Indian.

I am stressing and repeating myself again and again....I am not against awareness. I am against spreading the wrongful information. Be aware. . But be aware about the right things. .. or else it's just gossip!

I do have the authority to speak on behalf of every Indian. You opened up the subject and don't tell me you din't expect this!

Again, you stated some gossip from something you read... and I am stating facts from living there for 25 years and by traveling half of India.

Again. .. You are contradicting yourself about awareness. I shared my opinion about how Asians do not understand the concept of Tipping. I am a hypocrite to say that.... but awareness if you say it?

You brought the topic of cultural awareness. So sharing the right information about any misinformation is also a part of it.

lol codegirl, I know right! I love my red neck Calgary friends and my spaced out hippies. :p

Joshi -
Wow... you just can't seem to let this go. OR use the private message system. Why are you still hijacking my thread? (yeah and i lied about not addressing any more responses, I just wanted to see if the last word REALLY meant that much to you).
Also the food thing was a METAPHOR. Ever heard of that before? Do i need to explain this common practice to you as well?

Joshi wrote:I do have the authority to speak on behalf of every Indian.

Well now there's a bold statement if I ever did see one. Sorry I wasn't aware I was addressing the foreign dignitary.

Can I say I didn't expect this? No. But I honestly thought the maturity of this forum was at least at a level that even the mention that cultures are different wouldn't send some one into a tail spin of defensive statements. *rolls eyes*

Also I wasn't stating 'gossip' I was citing first hand accounts, AND my own if I do recall. Also published articles.

And no, it's only makes you a hypocrite if you say a generalized statement about one culture yet do not want generalized statements about your own. You know; kind of the text book definition there...

So now your information is the 'right' information? Interesting. See here is the thing, I have never once stated my information is 'right' only that it's of my first hand experience of myself and my friends, and on what I have read. But I never said it was the word of god or anything. Just MY opinion and MY experience.

You have different opinions and different experiences obviously, but that doesn't make mine untrue, or 'wrong'.

I can agree to disagree. The real question here is "Can you?"

Now STOP HIJACKING MY THREAD.

Yes, I agree to disagree.
One last thing. ...I always mentioned 'Asian'.... which includes India. There goes your theory of hypocrite.

You may continue with your thread...

Joshi - You don't get to mention 'one last thing' to insult me and move on. Bad form.

While we all know India is part of Asia, we all know we really mean 'Chinese, Japanese, Korean' etc when we use the term 'Asian', which is WHY this entire conversation we have been referring to those from India, as Indians, and not Asians. So stop trying to use semantics to prove your point, because it doesn't work.

-------------------

ibschoeny
Stating cultural differences isn't racism. No really. 

rac·ism
ˈrāˌsizəm/
noun

1. the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
   
   
   
   • prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.
     
     
     

What I'm talking about is called 

1. Cultural Relativism
   
2. Cultural Relativism is the view that moral or ethical systems, which vary from culture to culture, are all equally valid and no one system is really “better” than any other. This is based on the idea that there is no ultimate standard of good or evil, so every judgment about right and wrong is a product of society.
   

So please don't jump on the hate band wagon here.


Why is it that our western society has become so hypersensitive to this topic that some one can't even suggest people are different with out some one saying 


No... no it's not, it's just acknowledging people are different. There is nothing wrong with that. 

acknowledging people are different and HATING JUDGING AND FEARING people who are different are two separate things.

Why is this such a hard concept to grasp.

*face desk*

Jump down my throat if I say all people from India are rude cockroaches or something. Because THAT is racism. Saying their culture is different from ours isn't.

Peace

Really Forest-Fairy? Are we down to basic Geography? India may be in Asia....but Indians are not Asians?
Here is my source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_people
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/asian

Sorry everybody...she made me do it.

So I guess that makes me American then because Canada is in North America? lol

Arguing semantics is silly. Words mean what society dictates they mean with regards to common usage. End of story.

soooooo.... I have a gig in a couple of weeks at a farmer's market for donations. I'm totally using your wordage about minumum donation for certain designs to try and at least break even

And, because I am soooo typical Canadian, I am just going to say "I'm sorry" to everyone.... it makes me feel better   

I thought you wanted your thread back!

Sorry Forest-Fairy....to learn basic Geography...you are on your own. End of story.

I have a life.....so bye.

I found the original post very informative and I am sorry that it offended some because I am afraid that will make people reluctant to post useful information for fear of offending.  I am sure there are areas that the descriptions are true and it may be quite near the areas where people act nothing like what was described.  I find it useful to be aware so I know how to react and not be offended myself - or to offend a customer.  I have a tendency to take things personally when it comes to my work.

I have an acquaintance who's parents are from India and have shared some very interesting stories of cultural differences so I don't find it far fetched. It probably depends on the area.

Here in the US we can live side by side with completely different cultures and not really realize how different they are.  Example:  I live and grew up in the suburbs just 20 minutes from the inner city.  We have spent time in and around said inner city my whole life and saw differences but not dramatic ones.  Some stereotypes about inner city families I thought were exaggerated or based on what people saw on TV.   I did not live there though.  Fast forward to the present I have a dear friend who moved from this same inner city are to my neighborhood.  We have become close and shared a lot.  I have learned from her that this area that I have spent time in and out of my whole life was different than what I saw.  The stereotypes about inner city families exist for a reason.  Many of them are true and I did not know it even though I lived 20 minutes away.  There still exists for her a lot of culture conflict between what she has known her whole life and the way we do things in the suburbs.  Seems crazy since it is NOT some other country - it is basically down the street.  This is not to say every inner city family or every pocket of the inner city is the same, but it certainly helps me to understand some things between us when differences arise.  She grew up in a very different culture than I did.  And the differences in her predominantly black lower income urban upbringing are very different from some of my own family who were raised in the predominantly white lower income urban area (typically referred to as WT area).  You wouldn't think it would really be that different but it is.  

My point being that you could travel the world and even live in various places and not see what is right under your nose if you aren't raised in it.  

I know no offense was intended.  BUT I understand being sensitive to it.  

I actually appreciate the information so please don't be afraid to share.

I'm so glad to hear it codegirl! I became quite sad when i hear of people swearing off these types of gigs all together when there really can be money in them if you know how to work it.

lol yes it is very Canadian to say that all too often. I say it at work a lot when I'm packing up, even though i don't have to be 'sorry', I say it to help others feel better, that i wish i could stay and paint but i have to get going. Some times moms don't like to hear that, and they stomp their feet harder then the kids. With my experience being a face painter and having to deal with those types, it never surprises me any more when grown women in their 30s act like children. All you can do is laugh I suppose, because you know who ever is in the line watching can clearly see who the immature one is.

Thank you Staley, I'm so glad you found it helpful. Yes it's useful just to be aware for exactly those reasons. The last thing you want to do is offend some one or be offended yourself. But it can happen, and most of the time it's really just down to misunderstanding. 
My husband says that from time to time "stereotypes for a reason". I used to get irrate when he said it, but it took me a bit to realize that he wasn't saying "stereotypes are true" just that yes there is a reason they exist, there is a reason ALL things exist, and even if that reason isn't true, doesn't make sense, or doesn't apply to everyone, or everything, it was still the start of it all, and knowing this helps us bridge gaps.

Thank you again for your reply, I enjoyed reading it.

Forest-Fairy wrote:codegirl -
Totally. Most of all in Vancouver, it's split into many different districts where some neighborhoods are Chinese, others Greek, other Indian etc. Richmond is like the 2nd china town with out all the tourist attraction stuff. There is even a shopping mall where i kid you not, that white people can't shop at. They just refuse to serve you, with the exception being if you are there with a friend of another race. There is even a well known restaurant where they don't serve white people. They don't outright say it of course but they ignore your table, serving others that walk in after you, if you get food it's the wrong order, or it's cold. The message is pretty clear, and it's not just from one persons experience, the online reviews were staggering. Not even

It’s the same in NYC - it’s not as much as a “melting pot” as you would think.

Fantastic tips and info Forest-fairy, thank you for taking the time to write this, in the UK so not everything will apply in the same way, but it has given me real insight into how your ideas and suggestions could be used and adapted when trying to get the best out of the event. Thank you!!!

You are most welcome cazgh! Glad this can help!

Thanks for posting that Forest Fairy! Great tips!

Most welcome!

Great info! I agree in so many ways:) While I've been painting for several years, I've avoided farmers markets simply because I'd rather book a gig that's a "sure thing" than a market that could be rained out or have poor attendance. A couple weeks ago our local farm market had a huge grand opening and hired me to paint for free(I charged them a reduced rate simply to support my area) and doubled my money in tips. It never dawned on me that at farmers markets, people have CASH instead of paying for everything with plastic. This certainly works in favor of artists!

I'd love to see a pic of your boards/signs with suggested prices. Thanks for taking the time to write out and share your advice!!

Best thing about my farmers markets is that they are understanding if I cancel because of a booking. They are just filler. And if I cancel, there are other painters who work on the days I'm not there, we all share the market and have our own days.

Yup farmers markets mean cash. Also mothers with children generally have to take the children with them when they leave the house, or the whole family goes. So having something for the kids is pretty good.

The markets i go to also have 'market money' which you can 'buy' with your debit card, it's worth the same as regular money and all the stalls take it. Even I take it, and you can exchange up to $25 at the end of the day, anything more and you submit it and they send you a check. Great option for people who didn't bring money to the market.

I'll post some pics of my market setup soon!

Forest Fairy:

Thank you SO MUCH for the post! You really put so much effort into helping us all. I truly appreciate it. I unfortunately literally just bought a container for tips but now that I see you mention fanny packs, i might just use the container for food storage and buy a fanny pack instead. Good idea!

I have a white board. Do you think it would be okay or smart or bad to write down "free face painting from 3-6pm. Suggested donation: $x" ? (assuming the event host allows me to put out such a sign with the donation suggestion)
________________________________________
O and a little bit of my background before I touch on the "sensitive" topic, I am Vietnamese-American, 24 years old, born and raised in Houston, TX and now residing in a non-asian community in Tuscaloosa, Alabama and found your experiences with orientals absolutely hilarious LOL. My mom freaking takes a HUGE wad of napkins and ketchup packs from fast food chains and acts demanding at the pharmacy when they don't give the medicine in time even though the workers are super busy. From my personal experience, majority of the people from my culture are "cheap" and LOVE to save money. Obsessed with saving really. Even if it means not giving a dime. I had to teach my mom to tip higher at restaurants after I experienced customer service with no tips.

Then when I go do birthday parties, majority of the orientals don't tip UNLESS they are from a younger generation and raised in America vs overseas. Not only do they not tip me, but they request I stay longer for free "just one more please!" and the "just one more" goes on when more children come through the door. Luckily I haven't had that experience in a while since I've been going to younger generation Asian households.

As for Indians, I've experienced good and bad. There was a few who were absolutely sweet and tipped me, were wowed by my art and I would gladly paint them again. Then, some were hovering over me telling me what to do in addition to their kids telling me how to paint step by step ("the NEXT color you use is BLACK. THEN you have to use pink. DID YOU USE PINK YET!?")

And I was like you, originally feeling upset over " stereotypes are there for a reason" but then after experiencing face painting these past 4 years of my young life, I've come to cave in and believe that stereotypes, although obviously not true for every person, exists because, well, you know why

Anyway, again, thank you for all your tips about tips. Unfortunately these elementary schools I mentioned in my other post/thread are hesitant to even let me put out a tip jar. Not sure what to do.

Ok I'll be quiet now. Seems like I have a habit of writing long posts in this forum!

edit:

oh i forgot to ask, though i understand each state and country and region is different, how much do farmers markets generally charge for us face painters to have a booth?

I think thw white board is a wonderful idea!

Putting down how long you will be there and a suggested donation is great. So long as the event allows this.

Enjoyed reading your insights on your experience with other cultures, it was very insteresting. I always feel it's important that we don't frame other cultural norms as being bad, just different, and that we need to come from a place of understanding, but also keep in mind the way OUR culture works so we can stick a bit more to how things work in our culture when they are in our culture.

As for farmers markets charging: it's different all over. Here they don't charge face painters, balloon artists or muscians a fee because we are the entertainment. People usually have to PAY for entertainment to be there, and here we are offering to be there for donations - I would never ask an entertainer to pay ME for coming to my event to entertain my guests. Would you?

Explain to them that face painting is a draw to the event. It gives children and families something to do, thus is should be valued. I don't pay to be places.

Since I have just come from living in S. Korea, here is a bit of random culture information.

IF you are painting in a highly Korean area--put arm designs on your board--I painted about 90 kids while living there and only 2 had their faces painted--the rest had their arms (lower arms) painted.  They are very careful with their skin.

AND they do not have a tipping culture-I never tipped anyone (but one taxi driver who loaded and unloaded a bookcase for me). When teaching a few older ladies-- who had visited the USA-- about tipping they were very embarrassed that they didn't know about tipping and didn't do it on their vacation.


Just a few culture hints!  

Thanks for the great thread--lots of info to take in.