Homemade Gem Clusters- what to use?

I've been trying to make some of my own gem clusters to save $ and because they are so pretty and fun. I'm not sure if I'm using the right, best stuff though. I bought a pack of 1" Glue dots at the craft store which seem to be perfect and are a great size. I'm worried now that it might not be safe for the kids skin. They only stick to bare skin, not over the paint so there is no 'barrier'. I know many people use self adhesive gems from the scrapbook department but I have no idea how safe any of these are for the kids. I try to be careful about using the most appropriate products as the last thing I want is to hurt a child in any way.

Does anyone else have suggestions or opinions?

I don't use a lot of gems, but when I do I use the little bling crystals from the local beauty supply store in the nails supplies section. I don't do gems with adhesive backs from craft stores, just because I have really sensitive skin and a lot of adhesives irritate my skin, which tells me it might irritate a child's skin as well. The gems I get don't have any glue on them, and come in a little organizer so all the colors are separate. For adhesive, I use Ben Nye glitter glue. I love it, because it has just enough tack to hold glitter (over painted base) or little gems, but comes off easily with normal FP washoff. It's clear, so sometimes it's hard to see where it's been applied over painted designs, so sometimes I will put a couple drops of food coloring in the bottle to tint it so I can see where it's been applied. I've never had anyone with issues with this adhesive, and I always do a base layer and a painted design, then do the little gems with this adhesive last. Good luck!

There is a lot to learn right here.
http://www.facepaintforum.com/t8239-creating-your-own-gem-clusters?highlight=gem+clusters

well after reading that entire thread This is what i got

Rubber Cement:
Pros: Flexible, dries clear, tacky, peal off/no cutting
Cons: Isn't skin safe

Elmers Glue:
Pros: Hold the clusters together
Cons: Takes days to dry, doesn't dry clear

Sewing Adhesive Sheets:
Pros: Sticky back for easy application
Cons: have to cut them out, not 100% sure on the safe for skin

Lace, Tulle, or Clear Plastic Sheet:
Pros: Flexible, skin safe
Cons: have to cut them out

Aquarium Silicone:
Pros: Flexible, dries clear, peal off/no cutting, should be safe after curing
Cons: not 100% sure on the skin safety

Hot Glue
Pros: Flexible, Skin Safe, Dries Clear
Cons: Dries Really fast, can be hard to work with

So after looking at it all, the best one seems to be the Aquarium Silicone, for me the close 2nd place is the Rubber Cement though it's not safe for skin. So i thought if how this could be solved, and came up with this idea.

Clear Nail Polish.

I have bad metal allergies, and react to a lot of stuff, but for jewelry I paint the back with clear nail polish and it acts as a barrier to my skin, and I don't get a nasty rash. I'm thinking the same would be true if applied to the rubber cement.

As well as being a barrier to cheap metal, nail polish can even be used as as electrical insulator, so it should be efficient as a barrier to the rubber cement making contact with the skin. Best of all it's used cosmetically (tho i wouldn't recommend painting with it lol).

I'm going to go buy some rubber cement and try out this idea on myself to see if it works. I'll do a control test too; one without the nail polish barrier to see how i react to the rubber cement. (oh great I'm going to get a rash, the things i do for the scientific method :p )

I'll record the results and get back to you.

-Human Guinea Pig

Dear Forest-Fairy:
Fish are very sensitive to environmental toxins. Aquarium glue is silicone based, and after it is cured is supposed to be an inert substance. I cannot say the same thing about rubber cement. If someone has a sensitivity to latex, they may react to the rubber cement.

Yes i know Fesspenter, I actually have a 150 gallon aquarium and have used Aquarium Silicone before.


Wonderful stuff. The season I said it wasn't 100% is because it wasn't created for cosmetic use, but otherwise I agree it should be harmless. However my big reason for wanting to experiment is that I also know that not much likes to stick to silicone after its cured, so I'm going to experiment with it to see if my latex free eyelash adhesive works. I know prosaid would work but you need a solvent to remove it so its not something I would put on kids (for the purpose of easy removal). So i would think for best results you would need a silicone glue. The only other thing I know of that sticks to silicone is pax paint or silicone paint.

So that's the reason I'm going to test the rubber cement with clear nail polish and my eyelash glue with the aquarium silicone.

I am very curious if the nail polish will create the barrier I think it will.

Dear Forest-Fairy, if you read that whole file you must have seen my homemade cluster jewels with Aquarium Silicone.
here is how i used them, and stuck the cluster with glue for eyelashes:

PaolaSunglow wrote:Dear Forest-Fairy, if you read that whole file you must have seen my homemade cluster jewels with Aquarium Silicone.
here is how i used them, and stuck the cluster with glue for eyelashes:

Yes i read the whole thing, but what kind of eyelash glue do you use? It was not mentioned.

The rubber cement should never be in contact with the skin, you use them to glue the gems to the clear plastic, then you cut it and stick the plastic to the skin with safe body glue.

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Pros-Aide removes with rubbing alcohol or baby oil (I use coconut oil myself). You can certainly use a remover/solvent specifically for it, but it's not necessary.

Still haven't had time to test out the nail polish. Been really busy lately, but I'm still curious about it. Ultimately, I would avoid the rubber cement even with a layer of nail polish if it turns out aquarium silicone works better.

But I just thought about something in my effects kit that just might work! 3rd degree FX silicone. We use it for making burns and wounds some times. Expensive stuff though. We use it for things here and there, but we mainly use bondo transfers because they stick to the skin better. But this is a product that was MADE for skin, unlike aquarium silicone. I don't know why i didn't think of it until now. I might play around with some of it tomorrow, see if it works. If it does then this would be my product of choice because of it's safe for skin rating.

TheGildedCat wrote:Pros-Aide removes with rubbing alcohol or baby oil (I use coconut oil myself). You can certainly use a remover/solvent specifically for it, but it's not necessary.

Yeah it can be removed with rubbing alcohol, or some oils, but it's still not soap and water. I don't like saying to parents that you need something special to remove it when i have other skin glues that will come off with soap and water.

Also using rubbing alcohols on people with sensitive skin isn't the best idea. I can't even have a little bit on my face with out having a reaction. Found that out in my effects class when we were playing with illustrator pallets. So my thinking is since children often have sensitive skin it would be best to avoid this. Also just for people with normal skin you want to restore the PH of the skin after applying alcohol, use a toner or hitch hazel is the best. Again too many steps to tell a parent for me. Yes oil will work but it takes more scrubbing then a solvent or alcohol, also it's a wonderful way to clog up the pores. All in all it's just not necessary when you can just use latex free eyelash glue. :/

If it can't be removed easily with soap and water I don't put it on a kids face. I save the prosaide for my effects work.

Non-latex eyelash glue is an acrylic water-based adhesive, which is the same product as pros-aide, actually.

And no, I'm not smearing kids faces with pros-aide, lol. I use a tiny dot on the gem itself, let it get tacky, and stick it over paint. It works well, it's a cosmetic-grade product, and used in the medical field as well for applying prosthetics to facial skin and other skin areas.

I also use it in effects work, but on set, we remove all makeup with isopropyl myristate, a naturally occurring fatty acid, sometimes coupled with a surfactant. Most people know it as makeup remover, but it's an industry cosmetic standard.

For glitter tattoos, I clean the skin surface with a 70% isopropyl before applying the tatt. I don't apply them to faces. While we can certainly freak out over rubbing alcohol on skin and a potential temporary shift in pH of a small area, it's not a productive worry. Let me know the next time your physician busts out the toner after prepping your skin for a vaccine.

Oh I didn't know you also worked in film TheGildedCat. Me too! I do special FX makeup in Vancouver (Hollywood North lol)
Which films have you been on? We should swap set stories some time.

However I have to disagree that latex free eyelash adhesive is the same as prosaide. Prosaide is a water proof medical grade contact adhesive. Eyelash glue can be removed with soap and water, and isn't medical grade and isn't sticky when dry. The list of difference is vast.

To use prod-aide properly you must let it mostly dry with applications like this. The lash adhesive isn't water proof for one, and it doesn't require as much drying time as prosaide to form a strong bond. Also while acholol can help in the removal of the prosaide by breaking it down it doesn't actually remove all traces of it and it can become sticky again, also rubbing alcolhol is not something that should be applied to a childs face or near the eyes because of the fumes and it'd not good for sensitive skin. As with baby oil, while it can help it doesn't really fully remove it. Prosaide really does require a a proper remover in the end to do the job right.

Sweet Loretta actually talked about this back in January on -this thread.- " a picky parent will be an unhappy customer when they can't get that dirty spot of glue off their child's forehead before church with grandma or school." Agreed.

While isopropyl myristate can remove it ( it does a really bad job at it, and a solvant does the job better imo), i don't know many parents that have that laying around the house. Also while the glue might be applied to a small area, what ever you are removing it with is not contained to only that spot when you are rubbing to remove the glue. Also isopropyl myristate is a surfactant which is anything that disrupts fatty molicules, different soaps have different amounts. Dish soap as more, hand soap has less. Mexican laudry soap (the best thing to get your whites white again) will pale out your hands and dry them out making them crack because it contains a stronger surfactant. Bottom line is that surfactants cause damage to the skin, and also needs to be removed after use, the stronger the surfactant the more damage such as with isopropyl myristate, which is WAY more damaging then a cosmetic makeup remover. While I would use this for adults, i would avoid it for children or those with sensitive skin.

Isopropyl and acetone are different but not by much, and both can be damaging to the skin.

Isopropanol (also called Isopropyl) is an secondary alcohol, acetone is a ketone, structurally slightly different, flammability different. Aceton can dry out the skin with temporary white blemishes.

Isopropanol


Acetone


I'm not sure why so many think that ISO is less toxic than acetone. ISO is oxidized by the liver into acetone, so they have about the same level of toxicity. ISO is 2-propanol and acetone is 2-propanone.

However Isopropyl is safer to use on skin, while you would never want to use acetone. It's important to realize that they have similar properties and can both be damaging. Which is the only reason I'm bringing up this comparison.

Again something I try to avoid using on children if I can avoid it.
Isopropyl Myristate MSDS Quote: "Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant, permeator)"


Back to the Prosaide:

I realize that you aren't smearing their faces with it, but even a dab is not removed properly can cause a 'sticky situation'.

Here is a simple test:

Prosaide on top
Quo on bottom


The prosaide needed to be applied with a q-tip from the bottle. I suppose you could put it in a squeeze bottle tho, but it's consistent when wet is very milky and i wouldn't see a squeeze bottle working that well.
The Quo was applied out of the squeeze tube, it's so clear you can't even see it.

while the prosaide is white now it will 'dry' clear. I had to be careful with the amount and keep my arm level so it wouldn't drip.

I then applied a jewel to one of the dots with each glue. I didn't wait for the prosaide to dry fully (as I normally do with my FX work) because you wouldn't have time to wait that long while face painting. Though i allowed 30 seconds for each to get tacky. (later I mused that i could have used WAY less then I did)


After 5min drying:
i tested them, and The prosaide was a tiny bit stronger but after 5 min still came off almost as easily as the Quo gem.

After 15 min:
The quo actually held better then the prosaide. When I tried to remove the prosaide gem I found out why the Quo was holding better, it was because the prosaide hadn't fully dried yet. Of course being a bonded contact adhesive it really needs to almost fully dry before you stick stuff like this on it for the best result (as it remains sticky even when died from it's liquid form).

An hour later:
the prosiade still wasn't fully dry, and the quo was. I don't really use prosaide like this, so i think I would actually need to use less then half of the ammount that i did to get the drying time right.

Removal:
The prosaide pulled at my skin taking it off. Usually with stuff like this you apply a remover to soak in before you remove, and gently lift it away. That's the proper way to remove something stuck on with prosaide so there is no damage to the skin. This is something the average parent wouldn't know, and would probably just try to take it off first and clean it after. Ouch.
The Quo came off in a much friendlier way. It was still stuck in place but it certainly wasn't as subborn.

Just reaching for my camera I brushed my shirt with my arm and the patch where i removed the prosaide gem immediately started to pick up fibers.

As for the patches I left with out a gem, the prosaide began collecting dark fibers from my shirt and anything else they touched and became a dirty patch, which was still tacky to the touch. (I swear I didn't even try to make them dirty. I know this material - you don't have to try, it will just happen.)
The quo which had dried long ago wasn't sticky or tacky at all.

This is them 2 hrs since applying, one hr since removal of the gems. Again you can barely even see the eye lash glue.


For washing, the Quo came off easily with soap and water. The prosaide remained. Rather then use isopropyl myristate on my skin (because I have sensitive skin) I removed it with super-solv, and washed the area. All gone.

My personal conclusion just from how effective they were, is that using prosaide isn't necessary when there is less aggressive option, and that prosiade and Latex Free eyelash glue are clearly not the same thing.

"Let me know the next time your physician busts out the toner after prepping your skin for a vaccine"
I don't think they commonly use the face for an injection site.... they also usually only use 75% iso or lower, which doesn't do much at all to break down prosaide.

My mother in Law is a retired ER nurse with over 25 years experience, she is familiar with the product. I called her just to get her take on it.
She said that it's not used very much, but when it is used it would be for a Stoma, where they use it to glue down a face plate that lasts a week or two. "In order to remove it properly you have to use a solvent, and also it's best done by some one with experience with the material. The stickier the substance the stronger the remover you will need. If some one with out experience removes it incorrectly it can cause scarification to the skin." As for latex free eyelash glue being the same as prosaide she said "Absolutely not."

She also added "The duty of any craft is to be effective not damaging."

I also asked Aryn who has more experience with FX makeup then myself.
"I wouldn't use it on kids if there is something else just as effective and doesn't require specialized products to remove. If you are putting it on kids arms, fine, as long as the client is aware beforehand that it will require something other then soap and water to remove. It's not the prosaide itself that's the problem, it's removing it properly. As for the face, keep it simple, keep it light - soap and water - everyone has it - everyone's happy."

I'll also ask our friend our friend Gideon his opinion on this matter next time I see him. He has has more experience then Aryn and Myself combined with it comes to these maters, and he is my first 'go to' source. I'll ask him at our next board game night.

I think it really comes down to this: The average person is not really trained in this area, and not familiar with what we as makeup artists see as a simple removal. One of my teachers Fay Von Schroeder, was VERY strict and very clear when it came to using FX makeup on children, and how to remove it. I would be doing her teachings a disservice if I didn't pass this on.

Personally I don't use anything from my FX kit on anyone unless I'm the one doing the professional removal at the end of the day.

You can read more about pros-aide and removers in The Makeup Artist Handbook, a snippet of which can be found here.

If you like I can also provide references from the 'Miladys Standard Text Book of Cosmetology', 'Special Effects Make-up For Film And Theatre' by Janus Vinther, or 'Grande Illusions' by Tom Savini, if you require more resources for the differences and proper use of skin Adhesives.

This is a really in-depth comparison! Thanks for the info!

Sorry it took me a while to respond. While I appreciate your concern for the kids, I checked in with quite a few of the parents for whom I regularly paint their kids. Some were one-off events, some are kids I have painted at their parties for multiple years in a row and/or who visit me at public events over and over. Specifically, I contacted parents of parties that had a theme which involved more jewel placements (princess vs, oh, say spiderman, lol).

Not one of them had any issue with the jewel adhesive removal, nor irritated skin, no frustrations in that regard. The one comment that came up more than once was in regards to a teal color that seemed to stain fairer skin, but nobody had an issue with adhesive removal. Most of them used coconut or olive oil to remove any left over adhesive, but since I apply the adhesive over paint, it just washed off with the rest of the paint. For the parents I contacted whom I had placed glitter tattoos over bare skin on arms or legs, also, the concern was more that their kid was sad that the glitter tattoo eventually went away, not that the adhesive remained, was difficult to remove, or attracted fluff. For those who prematurely cleaned it off, they also used olive oil, coconut oil, or baby oil as I had recommended to them (and regularly use on myself to remove glitter tattoos I apply to myself for events). None had issue, there was no hard scrubbing (which I also specifically advise against), and the oil just dissolved the adhesive, which is also my personal experience.

I also contacted the body paint models I've painted. I use pros-aid in spots around the waistband of their thong to make sure it doesn't move and create painted "tan lines." Mark Reid showed me that trick. I asked them about removal and they also used a food-grade oil to remove it, no sweat, even on some more "sensitive" areas.

So, while I appreciate the concern for safety, the products I am using are intended for skin use, the parents don't seem to have the removal concerns you addressed, and the kids were happy with the results.

I do wish you the best of success in applying nail polish and latex based rubber cement to your clients, however, I'm going to stick with what is notably safe and working well for my clients.

@TheGildedCat
I'm glad that we cleared up that latex free eyelash glue and prosaide are the same thing. It's good to be on the same page.

Yeah I've had the same problem with teal, mostly on the palms of my hands, it likes to stick around anywhere with a lack of pigment.

Oh you are using the paint itself as a barrier! Ok well that explains the easier removal then! lol Here I was trying the olive oil at home being all "this is not working very well" lol. Perhaps with the paint barrier it would make it easier.

Neat trick with the thong, last time i tried that it was a mess and ruined the fabric, (I use double sided tape from now on. :/ ) maybe it wasn't the right material? What material did use use it on? Maybe I'll try it on that.

Oh yeah i know everything you are using is made for skin, my concern was only with the remover being sensitive to some skin types. After all Duo is made for skin too, but there are a certain percentage who have latex algeries. I know my skin reacts badly to the removal products made for prosaide. I asked Gideon and he said he'd never apply that to his kids because the proper removers are too strong for childrens skin. "Just like you wouldn't remove makeup or face paint with baby wipes" he said - you know because it contains oils that push the color further into the pores. Faye Von Schroder taught me that one class when I was taking something off with a baby wipe. Darn did that woman know her stuff! There is a reason why she was the personal makeup-artist to Jessica Alba before she retired (we all know she didn't really stop doing makeup tho lol). Also just to be extra sure I called my friend Céline Godeau, and asked her about this. She pretty much said what Gideon said. :/

But in the end all I can do is put information out there. If you have had success with using face paint as a barrier to the adhesive, and telling your clients to remove it with kitchen oil, that works I guess.

"I do wish you the best of success in applying nail polish and latex based rubber cement to your clients, however, I'm going to stick with what is notably safe and working well for my clients."

What on earth are you talking abo- ooooooh, you seemed to have misunderstood me, about the rubber cement (a lot) - I'll explain. I said I was curious to see if the nail polish would work as a barrier on the product itself, NOT that i was planning on using that on clients lol, or rubber cement for that matter. How silly would it be to think I went to make up school only to apply nail polish to some ones face! ROFL
See I use a clear nail polish coating on some of my jewelry since I have a metal allergy and it works as a barrier. I KNOW i would react with something like rubber cement on my skin so i was merely curious if nail polish would also act as a barrier (again ON the product and dried NOT of the skin). I said this several times in fact. But NOT that I was going to try with clients.

Funny this is I remember saying that i was only going to try it on myself out of curiosity, and also saying i wouldn't paint nail polish on the skin.

Me on Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:19 pm - "Best of all it's used cosmetically (tho i wouldn't recommend painting with it lol).
I'm going to go buy some rubber cement and try out this idea on myself to see if it works."

Hmmm yup, appears I did say that. It's ok I'm sure you just accidentally missed that part. ^.^

So yeah it was all just for curiosities sake to see if it would work. I mean who would use rubber cement when you can just use silicone? That would be silly to think that.

So now that that is cleared up, wanna talk movies? Got any interesting 'on set' stories? We should start a thread for FX or something. :p

P.S. Funny fact about nail polish is that it can even be a conductive barrier. My roommate pranked his friend once by applying it to the prons on the plug on his MP3 player; poor guy thought it was busted. lol