OMG! Aggravated! Please tell me if I'm wrong or the client's wrong

How would you handle this one (sorry for length):

A Catholic school hired me to paint for 5 hrs. (gig next weekend). It was a fundraiser in an affluent area that I knew I could make great tips and also get some affluent "Mommies" for parties. They asked me to discount etc. So, I normally charge $75. an hr. and $60. for hrs. after two, so I discounted it to $50. for each of first two hrs. and $40. after 2 hrs....a good price. It's 70 miles away (with a toll too). I normally charge 55 cents per mile and any tolls over 30 miles, but didn't charge THAT either. When she called me, we spoke of the venue..she said she would "probably" set me up on the school porch (covered), blah blah. I said OK, let me know, I also have a tent available, but we'd have to talk about that if she needed me to bring it. Oh no, no problem, I'll be on the porch. She also asks me for a copy of my insurance which I send her. All is OK
So now today.... she calls me, all nice...and tells me the school wants me to add THREE additonal insured onto my insurance for that day, included "His Eminence" with his PERSONAL name. She says she called the number on my insurance but they said I had to call to do it. So I call, but the guy was out today. I have this sheet that comes with the insurance and it says that "any additional insured name is $30. each". So I call her back and say I couldn't get the guy till tomorrow, but it looks like it'll be an extra $90. and I say the school would have to pick that up if they want it, because I'm not charging for travel and I deeply discounted my price already. She says she'll talk to them, although she doesn't sound too happy. So then I tell her I was going to call her anyway to confirm everything for next week. I again confirm I'm painting under the porch. Now she says "oh, actually, I moved you to be next to so & so, so just bring your tent". I say "I have a $30. tent use/setup charge". She goes NUTS on me, says I didn't tell her I had a charge, she thought it was all OK, it's a fundraiser, she NEVER heard of a vendor charging to bring their tent, blah blah. I said if I take a booth at a PPF festival myself and pay for it, of course I set up my own tent because it's PPF and there's no contractor, but that usually, birthday party clients, corporate clients, etc have a place for you to paint and that's it's VERY common for a professional face painter to charge a use/setup fee if a paying client wants a whole setup, and that there are many facepainting sites that state that right on their pricing pages and it states that on MINE. Blah, blah, she acted like I was some schemer and now she's "stuck" with me and I'm now changing the rules, and now she didn't know what to do. What I felt like doing is returning her deposit, but I don't need some nasty review written on me, so I smoothed the whole thing over and told her I'd bring the tent for free. Then she was all forgiving and nicey nicey. On top of everything else, she says at the end "are you bringing your car onto the property?". I say yes, of course, I have tons of setup supplies (incuding the damn tent now). She says the school wants to see my driver's license and needs a copy of my CAR INSURANCE? WTF? Is this common too? On top of that she says who's emailing me a "couple" of disclaimer forms to for me to sign. OMG, I will certainly learn a lesson from this. Am I nuts or do many face painters charge a fee for bringing their tent? I've seen it on a million websites. Thanks, Tina

(Just me) but I DO NOT go above and beyond to get jobs...

I had one client want to book me... emailed me like 3 times and then ask that I make up a 'proposal' that she can take to the board... I said sorry I am now booked and cannot attend your event.

I wasn't booked but I sure the heck am not going to tap dance for these people to get a 2 hour party.

The people you are dealing with are insane... I don't even understand why you are adding their names on your insurance.. Car insurance, license.. wtf...

If I were in your shoes I would tell them that you have already gone above and beyond for them and if that you would be at the event but you are doing no further bullshit for them. If they don't like that you will return their deposit and they can find someone else.

The first mistake was in you offering such a deep discount and offering a waive on a substantial amount of travel. It sounds to me like this woman has learned that you can be pushed around. One of the important factors in your success will be the ability to walk away from a situation that goes from a win-win to a lose-win.

The math: You gave them a 42% discount. Then you waived over two hours worth of travel ($44) which brought your event take down to $176/5 hrs (53% discount). But they also want you to pay their insured certificate fee, which brings your earning down to $86 for a 5 hour event (78% discount), and they want you to waive the tent fee which at $25 brings your earnings down to $61/5 hours and their discount up to 84%. Then they want you to jump through hoops to provide information that they don't ask of their parishoner who park on the property all the time! I'm sorry, but if I were a church large enough to have such a function, $375 would be plenty cheap for 5 hours of entertaiment, I'd be hard pressed to do it for 16% of my potential earnings.

Like you said, you have it on your website that you have a tent rental fee. If they were going to get a tent from Taylor Rents, they'd have to pay so if they want to have you provide a tent instead of providing you with shelter from the elements, they need to pay you a rental. I mean, if something happens to your tent at that event, you will have to pay to replace and fix it. If anyone gets hurt, it's your liability insurance that will have to be tapped.

As for the certificate of insured, I'm sure your company told her that there was a cost for the certificates and for her to expect you to come out of pocket for $90 when you're already practically giving away your services is pretty low and petty.

At some point you have to put your foot down as a business owner and draw that line in the sand. If you have a tent rental fee...charge the fee. They want a discount? Tally up the entire booking total and take a 5 or 10% cut off the top IF they ask for it and you want to give it. I know some painters who start out the gate offering a discount...it makes me scratch my head, but that's their thing not mine.

As soon as she went nuts I would've backed out. She has very little respect for you as a serious business from what I can tell from your story and nothing drives that point home faster that being reminded of who needs whom. Some people will keep taking until you establish a boundary and if you don't establish one you will have succeeded in nothing more than teaching them how to treat you badly.

I recently sent out a booking cancellation notice to a client who after promising to send out a retainer and contract, lied twice about having sent it. I let her know that her contract was null and void and that the spot was no longer available. Her threats to tell all of her friends and family don't mean anything to me because if they are of the same mind to treat a small business owner like an afterthought, i don't want their business. I landed a much better corporate job for that day and because I was willing to teach her how to treat me, I'm making 3 times as much for a client who had payment to me in less than 24 hours and is bending over backwards to make sure that I have everything I need!

We Teach People How To Treat Us.
People who treat you badly are never wooed to kindness by your doing a impersonation of a doormat...they just have a better idea of where to step the next time they have to deal with you.
Don't ever forget that they need you... and while it may be a situation where you do need the income they will provide, the sour taste in your mouth from doing an event for someone who doesn't respect you will be poor compensation.

Just my two cents. It really torques me when people treat us like that!
Off my ranting box now...

CJ

Thanks Suzy, for letting me know I'm not the one that's nuts. Also thanks to CJ for taking the time to break it down like this. I'm new in this game, I must have had my head screwed off when I made this deal. Seeing you put these figures down like this was like a light bulb went on...I will NEVER discount like this or give in again. WOW, your breakdown really hit home, lol.
To all, see my newest email ont he "update", it got even MORE ridiculous, if that was even possible. I already offered to refund their deposit

LADY JAYDE - Logged on JUST to say I LOVED your rant! As a (sometimes) recovering doormat, it is great to get a rousing reminder now and again! Rah rah rah!!!

TinafromNY wrote:Thanks Suzy, for letting me know I'm not the one that's nuts. Also thanks to CJ for taking the time to break it down like this. I'm new in this game, I must have had my head screwed off when I made this deal. Seeing you put these figures down like this was like a light bulb went on...I will NEVER discount like this or give in again. WOW, your breakdown really hit home, lol.
To all, see my newest email ont he "update", it got even MORE ridiculous, if that was even possible. I already offered to refund their deposit

I brought my Excedrine with me today so I was happy to do math for you
I had to break it down for myself the same way years ago and I can't say it changed my life, but it did change the way I looked at how I handled bookings. If it helps you any at all it was my pleasure. We're not expected to know everything and those of us with scar tissue from our growing pains will be around a lot longer than most. I read your other post and it sounds like the light came on before you read the break down. Good luck...and if you need a torch to burn that bridge let me know... I'm freakishly good at it. That's not a good character trait is it?

JJJJJ wrote:LADY JAYDE - Logged on JUST to say I LOVED your rant! As a (sometimes) recovering doormat, it is great to get a rousing reminder now and again! Rah rah rah!!!

As someone with permanent shoe mark scars on her back, I'm glad to have gotten you all riled up, lol!

LMAO, C. J. Went to your site, love your work...saw you were in the mililitary...lol, no wonder your post was so take charge and good, lol!!!! Thanks so much. I'm not waiting for her to "talk to some people" either. I just emailed her to say I spoke with some business collegues and I am returning her deposit, sorry LOL

Good on you! I just wish I could be fly on the wall when she realized that she pushed for too much and provided the first crack in the negotions.

Thank you for visiting my antiquated site, lol. I actually have an updated one in the background, but I haven't had time to finsih the verbiage on my About Me page... I honestly don't like talking about myself much.

Yes... I've always felt that gettiing out of the military after 10 years was a mistake...poor civilians don't always know how to take me! You should see me with the mean mom PTA brigade in my town...it's laughable how flustered they get when they realize I don't give a hairy brown mouse's hind quarters what they think of me. I really need help...

Wow this made me laugh.. people are crazy, not normally the little soccer mum who struggles week after week to provide an amazing birthday party for there child who does question the fess or hourly rate ... it is the companies that wants you to do it for free or next to nothing as they think we are all struggling artists that need the exposure and will take anything to get it.. bahhh to you all.

I 100% agree with what Suzy said.

Remind them they hired a professional, not a hobbyist... Actually now that I think of it, I would send her a coupon to Michaels, tell her of the great face paints there and tell her st this point it would probably be more suitable for them financially if they did it themselves:)

LOL Lynne, I love that...send her a Michaels coupon lol.

Here's the update. Just got an email that said she doesn't know what all those rules were about, but the principal now says they want me and will NOT require me to do ANY of those things they asked, not even the insurance thing. So...lol...I said OK, see you Sat. LMAO! At least I won the fight pretty much, but I DID learn a good lesson from it!

Wow. I really often think we should come up with some sort of "annoying client" fee. Every complaint about my rates increases your rate 10%! ;-) The irony is you'll be spending more time and enduring more stress just dealing with this client, let alone making less money. The first hint of a complaint about my rates, remind them that they get what they pay for...and you have clients willing to pay your full rates so why should you turn down appreciative clients to save the date for someone who already doesn't appreciate the work you do before they even meet you? Ugh.

It does take quite a few years, but if you stick to your guns and don't waste your time with clients like this, you'll gradually build up a good base of returning customers who appreciate your work and are more than willing to pay your full rate!

When I paint for my own friends I don't discount my painting time at all, sometimes I'll waive my travel fees. I ONLY paint for free at my own church's events. Honestly, when most clients looking for charity discounts contact me, I tell them that as a small business I can only afford to do so many charity discounted events per year, and that I have reached that limit. However, here are my regular rates if you find that it fits within your budget. Surprisingly, I do have people come back to me willing to pay those full rates without complaint!

Lady Jayde, awesome advice and well said. Thank you for sharing.

Sounds like you made some new business errors. Chalk it up and go have a good painting experience. So big deal your making less than, it happens and ir will again. But you'll get more experienced at handling the initial negotiations and in reading your clients.

As for insurance, a fee for additionally insured is common but not all charge this. Maybe you want to look into that, as most schools will as for additonally insured. Adding the Pope may be a bit of a far reach but when my company does any event on a county fairgrounds here I have to add on the, the State Fair, Western State Fair Association and the State of California. So deep pocket coverage is not uncommon. We annually add schools and school districts and of course the state.

I had a similar problem recently. The company I work for is hosting a 5k to benefit the in house charity. I contacted the head of the foundation, though my work email, letting him know I am a professional face painter and asked if they were interested in hiring me to paint faces set. The typical, look at my site, contact me if you're interested. After roughly a month, a follow up email to him and 2 to the other organizer, he finally calls me back. I was pretty clear that I was not volunteering, but was looking to be hired, and we could work out pricing a few different ways. He points out that they have another employee in a different region that has painted faces "for free" at other events. (I have seen pics, and it makes me cringe when I see this well-meaning fellow paint with acrylic paints). I kindly point out I use professional paints, I am a professional painter, I have a portfolio ect and carry insurance ect. I also point out I've done other fundraisers for similar events and can provide him with references, and because it's the weekend before Halloween, face painting will be a huge hit. Now all of a sudden, he has a $350 budget to hire me with!

Stick to your guns!

Wow this lady is having some borderline issues. She brushed off the tent, "just bring it", like its not hard to travel with and set up a tent. I always tell potential clients I can bring a tent, then it is in the contract that it is an extra $15. So yes, some are surprised when I don't mention it in the beginning or they don't read the contract. You live and learn, but, if its more heartache and lost sleep, I wouldn't do it... there's more clients waiting for you out there

Where's that darn like button when you need it?

Lady Jayde wrote:The first mistake was in you offering such a deep discount and offering a waive on a substantial amount of travel. It sounds to me like this woman has learned that you can be pushed around. One of the important factors in your success will be the ability to walk away from a situation that goes from a win-win to a lose-win.

The math: You gave them a 42% discount. Then you waived over two hours worth of travel ($44) which brought your event take down to $176/5 hrs (53% discount). But they also want you to pay their insured certificate fee, which brings your earning down to $86 for a 5 hour event (78% discount), and they want you to waive the tent fee which at $25 brings your earnings down to $61/5 hours and their discount up to 84%. Then they want you to jump through hoops to provide information that they don't ask of their parishoner who park on the property all the time! I'm sorry, but if I were a church large enough to have such a function, $375 would be plenty cheap for 5 hours of entertaiment, I'd be hard pressed to do it for 16% of my potential earnings.

Like you said, you have it on your website that you have a tent rental fee. If they were going to get a tent from Taylor Rents, they'd have to pay so if they want to have you provide a tent instead of providing you with shelter from the elements, they need to pay you a rental. I mean, if something happens to your tent at that event, you will have to pay to replace and fix it. If anyone gets hurt, it's your liability insurance that will have to be tapped.

As for the certificate of insured, I'm sure your company told her that there was a cost for the certificates and for her to expect you to come out of pocket for $90 when you're already practically giving away your services is pretty low and petty.

At some point you have to put your foot down as a business owner and draw that line in the sand. If you have a tent rental fee...charge the fee. They want a discount? Tally up the entire booking total and take a 5 or 10% cut off the top IF they ask for it and you want to give it. I know some painters who start out the gate offering a discount...it makes me scratch my head, but that's their thing not mine.

As soon as she went nuts I would've backed out. She has very little respect for you as a serious business from what I can tell from your story and nothing drives that point home faster that being reminded of who needs whom. Some people will keep taking until you establish a boundary and if you don't establish one you will have succeeded in nothing more than teaching them how to treat you badly.

I recently sent out a booking cancellation notice to a client who after promising to send out a retainer and contract, lied twice about having sent it. I let her know that her contract was null and void and that the spot was no longer available. Her threats to tell all of her friends and family don't mean anything to me because if they are of the same mind to treat a small business owner like an afterthought, i don't want their business. I landed a much better corporate job for that day and because I was willing to teach her how to treat me, I'm making 3 times as much for a client who had payment to me in less than 24 hours and is bending over backwards to make sure that I have everything I need!

We Teach People How To Treat Us.
People who treat you badly are never wooed to kindness by your doing a impersonation of a doormat...they just have a better idea of where to step the next time they have to deal with you.
Don't ever forget that they need you... and while it may be a situation where you do need the income they will provide, the sour taste in your mouth from doing an event for someone who doesn't respect you will be poor compensation.

Just my two cents. It really torques me when people treat us like that!
Off my ranting box now...

CJ

I don't know, but I would walk away from this one. This lady sounds bi-polar. At the very, very least, make sure they pay you before you start. I have a bad feeling about this one.

-Metina

I never deep discount on the weekends & never if there's travel. Why do I want to build my client base in an area where I have to travel, & close out local jobs for the rest of the day. I have a group that always calls & wants me to paint FOR FREE, FOR GREAT EXPOSURE 100 miles away.... Um, sorry, no... I'm booked.

I've never had multiple people on the insurance, just the group that's asking. Weird on all the other stuff, if you ask me. I do charge for my tent, but this is how I word it. There will be a $40 setup/break down fee if I have to get my tent, set it up & break it down. This fee will be waived if the client provides workers to help. Workers must be there on time so I can make it to my next engagement. This way, I end up w/ a few big guys helping me out & I don't have to bother w/ the tent

Another update!!!....so, I was committed, so I went and did the job last weekend. It was a very nice little festival, lots of games etc. for this fundraiser. Of course, I didn't have to do all their "rules" as it turned out in the end. Parents told me I was the "busiest booth there"..I didn't even have time to look as I was so busy painting. Afterwards, the organizer hugged me and said my booth brought in " a lot of money and was the most popular event". They were thrilled with me and asked me t come back. I was very nice, said "sure, but I will have to up my price next time and also charge for the travel time". She said she'd figure it out. Also...get this...it was a VERY affluent Westchester area town and it was a private school, so the parents had money. I had my tip jar there and painted 5 hrs. Tons of parents kept telling me I was "a real artist" and that it "was the best face painting they ever got at a festival", blah, blah. At the end of the festival in this super affluent town, guess how much I had in my tip jar? A big whopping $9., which I spent at the pizzaria on my way home. Big lesson learned on this gig. Thanks for all the input from everyone!!!!

Oh wow... I do put out a lot of signage for tipping... I put my bucket out & I wear a button. I make sure my bucket is Very Visible & seed it w/ appropriate bills for the clientele... Affluent area = $5/ $10/ $20 & 2 $1s. Then it has a chance of growing ....

Another idea is to have the client match what you don't make in tips to = your hourly rate. This way they'll encourage clients to tip you, 'cause they don't want to have to pay you...

Thanks Linda...I actually thought of wearing a button! What does yours say? Where did you get it?

There are empty buttons at Michael's for inserting a picture (they're in the area where they have Photo coffee mugs, etc). I just printed out the words "TIPS MAKE ME SMILE" on bright paper, cut it to fit the button & inserted it. I have 3 of them (one for me & the others for my daughters).

Thanks Linda!!!!!