Quick I have a job that I'm not ready for!

No, wait.

I don't take money from anyone until I know that I can handle the job.

I don't make promises I can't fulfill.

I'm not entitled to information just because I ask for it.

So I'm good.

~Michelle

Yup, you are!!

Hmmmm-you went there.

unnecessary.

SuzySparkles wrote:unnecessary.

Suzy,

I'm not so sure about that.

Let's have a civil conversation about this.

1. It is very common in creative, freelancing areas (face painting and makeup artistry come to mind) to have people jump in and get their feet wet.

2. Said new people who get in deep w/o doing research then come to forums asking for free advice.

Let's keep our replies short and we can avoid any lengthy monologues.

~Michelle

I think its quite normal to ask for information and advice when you are just starting. I do not understand what all the fuss is about
If there is anyone that dislikes giving advice and info, he/she can simply choose not to answer.
Maybe I misunderstood the topic.

EerinArts wrote:I think its quite normal to ask for information and advice when you are just starting. I do not see what the fuss is about

Not so much a fuss over asking for advice.

More of a fuss over marketing yourself as a face painter for hire when you are not ready.

Saying "Oh sure, I can do that!" to paying customers.
Then going online and saying "Oh shoot! How do I do that?!"

~Michelle

I understand your point

I have had many gigs that I have accepted without having the faces ready, that I have had to research and practice before going to the party. I never go without having all of the faces practiced, photographed and printed on a display for the kids to select from. So I will accept it, research it and then go...

My first and trusted method is google. I will search for design ideas and practice those. If that doesn't help then I come here. The chocolate fest for example... While I paid a booth fee to be part of that festival and could easily just use my boring old designs I thought it would be fun to throw a few chocolate ideas in... I cannot come up with any on my own... AT ALL!! I am completely stuck in the mud when it comes to chocolate for some weird reason since I probably bleed it from eating it so much!! lol

So, I asked for help and someone suggested i make a little contest out of it, which sounded like tons of fun to me and I even offered $35 worth of prizes just as a little extra incentive. Just because I want to figure out some chocolate designs that are fun and again... not necessary.

I don't even know what I would have done had I gotten an actual chocolate gig where all chocolate designs were required!

I guess I just don't think it is bad to ask for help when you are creatively stuck.

SuzySparkles wrote:I understand your point

I have had many gigs that I have accepted without having the faces ready, that I have had to research and practice before going to the party. I never go without having all of the faces practiced, photographed and printed on a display for the kids to select from. So I will accept it, research it and then go...

...

I guess I just don't think it is bad to ask for help when you are creatively stuck.

And what I'm saying is that New painters can't get in over their heads and ask for a bailout.

Not that Suzy shouldn't ask for help

Are you still going to send me my palette?

It must be nice to never get in over you head and not have to ask for advice, new or otherwise.

PatB wrote:It must be nice to never get in over you head and not have to ask for advice, new or otherwise.

Do you hire yourself out as a plumber and then rush right over to the plumber forum and ask for handouts on how to plumb?

If you hire yourself out as a face painter but have no idea what you are going to do once you get the job, then I am talking about you.

If you are asking for bits of advice about how to improve your work, then I am not talking about you.

~Michelle

PatB wrote:It must be nice to never get in over you head and not have to ask for advice, new or otherwise.

And also, if I can't handle a job then I man up and tell the person inquiring that I can't do it.

~Michelle

And what I'm saying is that New painters can't get in over their heads and ask for a bailout.

Not that Suzy shouldn't ask for help

Are you still going to send me my palette? [/quote]

Your original post didn't say new painters so I thought you were talking about me

Of course I will still send you your palette!! lol (I am shipping it tomorrow)

Okay back on topic... We were all new at one point and I think it would be okay to ask for help. I did lots of free gigs before I started charging though... That way if I did a bad job I didn't feel too bad about it

Michelle Heffner wrote:

EerinArts wrote:I think its quite normal to ask for information and advice when you are just starting. I do not see what the fuss is about

Not so much a fuss over asking for advice.

More of a fuss over marketing yourself as a face painter for hire when you are not ready.

Saying "Oh sure, I can do that!" to paying customers.
Then going online and saying "Oh shoot! How do I do that?!"

~Michelle

Ah ok, I understand.
I started by marketing myself but with the message that I was doing portfolio work, and people that would hire me get a discount because I was just starting.
It worked ok. In this way they knew that I would not be completely sure about how well I would do the job, and gave their consent in me doing it for them anyway (is that a sentence? sorry) And still I would get paid a little bit and get to do portfolio work. I grew into 'being ready' by doing this, and then started doing it in the normal way.

I think the point she is trying to make is that people should not put it out there that they are a professional face painter or glitter tat artist, etc. and accept a paying gig just because they think it looks easy and say, "hey, I can do that" then realize that they have never face painted or done tats before and don't really even know what to do. So, they then go to forums, etc. and say hey, I have a job coming up and need to find out how to do this. What paint (glitter, stencils, brushes, etc.) do I need to buy? Oh, and can you tell me how to use all that stuff??? Oh, and if you could send me your photos to use and could do a step-by-step or a video, that would be great too.

This is not about people who are learning their skills or trying to improve, or even just need specific ideas for a themed event. It is about someone selling a service that they don't already provide, then trying to get people who have put in the dedication to learn these things already to bail them out of the jam they got themselves into.

Is that right, Michelle?

modernmagik wrote:

This is not about people who are learning their skills or trying to improve, or even just need specific ideas for a themed event. It is about someone selling a service that they don't already provide, then trying to get people who have put in the dedication to learn these things already to bail them out of the jam they got themselves into.

Is that right, Michelle?

Right on the button, Lisa.

When I wanted to be a makeup artist, the forums out there were a treasure. But you couldn't just say "Hey! I have a big PAYING gig tomorrow and I have no clue what to do!!"

There was professional courtesy. You waited until you were ready, you practiced like a MoFo and THEN you were ready to start accepting $$.

~Michelle

You would think that there would be a logical sequence to things, right?

I really think the real problem is that too many people only see $$$.

Yes, I know what you mean. I was at a festival a couple of weeks ago, and I painted a spider on this guy's neck. He then goes on telling me he's out of work and boy, I think I can do this, too and make some money! I didn't say a word, just smiled, because, hey, he's a grown man. If he can't figure out for himself that it costs money to buy a tent, buy the paint, learn the designs, practice, practice, practice, pay the booth fee, etc. then I'm not his mama and I shouldn't have to tell him that stuff and let him learn it the hard way!

Geesh! This thread starts out a bit aggro! It seems to come from left field, and I don't know if it's supposed to be a private conversation or something!

Why not explain what prompted this - is it a dig at someone?

Anyway, I had not thought that this forum was particularly only for professional face painters, but for all levels. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was about helping each other out, sparking ideas and stimulating each other, and just hanging out.

I thought Suzy's idea of a contest was kind of fun - but I did think privately that she maybe shouldn't be throwing money around so lavishly. In no way did it occur to me that she wasn't ready for the chocolate job.

I'm pretty much a novice myself at face painting. Still learning - and we're all at different places along the learning road. Someone like Shannon is 'waaaaaaay ahead of the pack, far down the road. The rest of us are spread out along the way, with me pretty near the beginning of the road. I notice that Shannon is always happy to offer help and advice, and I take her as a role model in her attitude toward others not so advanced.

Kat

Everyone starts at the begining thaey just start at different times.
Shannon has indeed put in her time as well as many of us in different ways.
When you walk into a dojo or house of learning you do not get taken by the hand by the master and all the answers you want laid in front of you. There is a process to learning, and there is a reason why someone is a novice and some one is a master. I remember the line in Fame when Debi Allen said you get thru to the top in sweat in blood and right here is where you start paying.
I help people all the time but I am feeling a bit bored with people saying I have this big gig and I am not prepared please give me your knowledge and expertize to get to the pay off. I go to classes, sketch for hours, research and prepare myself and my dedication and confidence show when I work. I am humble and quietly listen knowing there is so much more for me to learn from others. Just like my martial arts no one can give me good form. And if you know me personally you know when I am around other painters I have the utmost of respect for every level of painter.

Michelle is an accomplished painter and a great person and has explained where this comment came from. She also wanted to open a dialouge which is her perogative to do in an open forum. It's the reactions I find so interesting.

Everyone starts at the begining thaey just start at different times.
Shannon has indeed put in her time as well as many of us in different ways.
When you walk into a dojo or house of learning you do not get taken by the hand by the master and all the answers you want laid in front of you. There is a process to learning, and there is a reason why someone is a novice and some one is a master. I remember the line in Fame when Debi Allen said you get thru to the top in sweat in blood and right here is where you start paying.
I help people all the time but I am feeling a bit bored with people saying I have this big gig and I am not prepared please give me your knowledge and expertize to get to the pay off. I go to classes, sketch for hours, research and prepare myself and my dedication and confidence show when I work. I am humble and quietly listen knowing there is so much more for me to learn from others. Just like my martial arts no one can give me good form. And if you know me personally you know when I am around other painters I have the utmost of respect for every level of painter.

Michelle is an accomplished painter and a great person and has explained where this comment came from. She also wanted to open a dialouge which is her perogative to do in an open forum. It's the reactions I find so interesting.

Wait... can you do the face painting for me
Sorry, had to say it. I just posted a "show me your ideas" thread.... wonder if I should have.....
I guess we have a choice on if we want to post answers or not. The questions for hep will come either way.... I think it all ends up w/ what the person does w/ the info. When I started I didn't even know of forums(only been here for a few months & LOVE IT!), so I had to figure it out all by myself. Boy did I make BIG mistakes. Some I'm glad of because I learned by experience, some I wish I could have read about & not had to have.
I'm rambling a little.... Love ya guys/gals!

WOW, this is getting way too out of hand .Suzy do you have a local guild near you they are a great source of support and learning.

I don't think anyone ever minds helping someone who is just hitting a creative wall and is in need of ideas for something in particular, or someone who really needs advise on a product or situation, or someone wanting a critique or tips on how they can improve their skills or a particular design. That is where the sharing is usually offered freely and in generous amounts.

ruths fab faces wrote:WOW, this is getting way too out of hand .Suzy do you have a local guild near you they are a great source of support and learning.

I am cool, she wasn't really talking to me and we weren't arguing or anything... It seems as though people are thinking that I am new and asking for help or something... I just hit a creative wall with chocolate for some reason and I am interested to see if anyone else can come up with anything because I would really like to incorporate them into a festival I am doing. If I end up getting no ideas I am fine with that also but I figured a chocolate fest would do well with some chocolate paintings