Old school

Warning: a whole lotta' tangents ahead! \]po\

Yup, I have a subscription to FABATv and I agree the Lynne Jamieson tutorial was *painful* to watch for numerous reasons, including the sponging. I'm really glad the result was so beautiful! They shouldn't have aired that class as-is.

I'd argue that yes, we're absolutely using Wolfe Brother's designs any time we sponge a skull base. That said, there's a lot of overlap between Wolfe Brothers/Pashur designs and frankly, if you look at old American Painter magazines - their fast/PPF designs came from someone else as well. There's very little that's "original" so we're all definitely using designs they've created and designs they've adapted. I see a lot of their unicorn/pegasus variations on here and many of their dragons.

I think with FABATv - there's also the urge to keep going on designs where if they had a line 20 deep, they wouldn't be including so much detail. We all have our presentation designs, website designs, and then the reality of what we create after a long day of cold, cramping fingers, whiney parents, and a line that won't quit, lol!

My comment was not to discourage anyone from posting quick designs - I love seeing both quick designs and the intricate artistry!

This thread - and others - encourage me to stretch myself and to not rely soley on "easy" one-stroke designs. I love to challenge myself, even with long lines and see what I can create: maximum wow with minimum time. One-stroke absolutely helps with that, but it's great to see other ways to accomplish a task and use it as inspiration rather than be frustrated because I can't use the design right out of the "box."

On another note - I think it's standard but kind of weird to chide an artist for not "giving" (or selling) us more designs of theirs we can use to make money. I'm not bashing anyone for doing it, but doesn't it seem kind of odd from an artist perspective? Do any other arts have the same demand for reproducible product?

During the class I took with Brian, he talked about all the different ways to use what they teach. They try not to teach "designs" as much as technique. Their skull is not so much teach you how to create a skull, but to understand highlight and shadow - from there you can create most anything! They talked about how some face painters take their class and then go right back to doing their own thing. Others take it and use it as a springboard to creating their own niche. The WB's do create books of designs because that's what sells. That's why Pashur is doing the FP tour/book thing as well. The money for them is selling easy-access designs and not so much in the art/skill/technique. I think it's kind of sad, really.

Neither Pashur nor the WBs nor Lynne nor Dutch use one-strokes but accomplish amazing and speedy results. It's like the stencil debate that happened a few days ago: One-strokes, rainbow cakes, and stencils aren't going to make your work better if you don't have the techniques and skills down. Nothing ruins a nice rainbow cake design faster than shoddy linework!

There appear to be two sides to face painting:
-the crafty'er side of it: busting out designs with the goal to sell the "item"
-the artsy'er side of it: creating beautiful things because we can
Neither side is right, and it's great when we can merge the two, but this thread brings to a head the difference between the two approaches.

And here I go, late night rambling again!

I like that Lynne does pause and say that you can stop here, but then says that let's do the whole hog. Then shows us how to make it WOW!

If you've got the skills, then you should be able to look at a design and simplify it down to a shorter time.

I'm hoping to see more quick designs on FABATV because I feel that's what my money should be spent on. It's fun doing the larger designs, but I usually use those for Halloween. Quicker designs that wow are what I need right now.

I so agree Cotton Kandy Clown! I love looking at complicated faces and watching people paint masterpieces, and it is a blast to get to paint something that is really "wow" and practice techniques, but I need to find repeatable desing ideas that give me "wow" quickly.

i'm just going to jump in quickly...98% of my designs are 3-5 min. i'm a real life face painter. i paint at birthday parties abd festivals...that's really most of my work

the wofle's, mark reid and lynne are very quick....using their own techniques

lynne gets really nervouse when she teaches. she also uses abc's and splits when she paints (real life)

i know nick wolfe told me he uses splits for snakes "real life"

and....mark reid is amazingly fast using just a sponge.

you find out what works best for you...and, the arty cakes are another tool. some people pick up using them really quickly...and, they can make moving your line easier

i know i'm alot faster with abc's than a sponge...

but...when i posted "traditional looking" fpaintings i did with abc's...

people's response...was that they wanted to see the variation in colors...??

but, i'm still quicker painting a monster with an abc than a sponge.

it works for me.

so....i guess i'm just saying that learning from others...helps you find yourself.

when i first started painting...i hosted bringing into my area...the wolfe's, mark reid, lynne, marcela, and jinny.

i learned something from all of them, and i'm a better painter because i took their classes. but, i don't paint exactly like any of them...

i guess they key is...to become your own... unique you.

but...on that path, you'll most likely learn from, and copy many others. take what you need, and leave the rest. one style-technique isn't better than the other.

but...one may be better for you...

i'll attach a couple of my more traditional fp using abc's. works for me. and, of course inspired by mark and the wolfe's

ttfn

rebecca

I agree Rebecca. Before getting into FP I did very large wall murals and canvas art. It took a while to find my own "style" but I did so buy looking and using others techniques, and because I have never taken an art class in my life I used those techniques by trial and error. During those times is when I found my own style of artwork. I think the most difficult aspect of that learning process is actually being at peace with your own talents and style.

I am still on that journey with facepainting and love seeing how all the masters do it. I love the complicated face paintings because it is a testimony of that artists skill and imagination. But it also takes an extreme amount of skill and imagination to do quick and beautiful designs and those deserve appreciation as well. Kudos to every artist for bringing their own version of beauty to this world - no matter what tool they use to create it.

This is a very interesting discussion to me...especially the craft vs art thing because I think that this field needs both. Just like fashion, we need the artist types who come up with the crazy runway designs and put the colors together and shapes and then we need the crafters who take those designs and figure out how to make them something marketable that people will actually pay money for.

Do you think runway designers could really make any money if it wasn't for the crafters? They sell a few of their actual runway designs but most of the money in fashion comes from the mass market where we all buy the off the rack. We buy the accessible, wearable, comfortable versions of the "art."

I guess I am a crafter....I admit it. But I also feel that there is nothing wrong with being a crafter, especially in face painting. Don't the Wolfe brothers tell people "It's just face paint"? My "joy" in this job is becoming quicker and better and coming up with new ways of doing the same thing so it looks better each time I do it. It makes me happy to perfect a holly leaf or figure out a one-stroke way to make a hummingbird.

Even the great painters that we are talking about have their own art (body painting, canvas painting, special effects, graffiti murals) but then they are realistic and have the "crafty" side where they break down their stuff and teach it to the mass markets...if they didn't, someone would!

I got chided just a little bit by GuildedCat for mentioning that Pashur makes me money. Isn't that exactly what those classes are for? He's made his beautiful designs accessible for the majority of face painters. He gives you the wow stuff, but then I love him because he's realistic about us painters having to go out into the market and have 3 minute designs to put on our boards. We've had good discussions during class breaks about how I was going to make more money next summer and where to market, etc. He's also stopped me from being lazy about my teardrops and linework...he really wants the client to have a beautiful piece for the money.

THANK GOODNESS for the artists; but, if it wasn't for us crafters and the clients out here in the world there wouldn't be a need for the artists.

D.

Really interesting discussions and points of view.

I love how everyone's so respectful in presenting their own thoughts and opinions. It's part of what makes this forum so great!

I guess when I started this thread I was wondering if the more advanced and experienced painters found value in the rainbow cakes and arty cakes. Or... if they cared to try them, since their methods were tried and true. I can definitely look at their technique, but lay my base on in 30 seconds instead of 5 min using a rainbow cake. I actually painted for 2 years without rainbow cakes because I really didn't know about them. It wasn't until I was asked to paint with someone else at a fair that I saw some of her tools and rainbow cakes and said, "no freaking way! That's amazing!" I didn't have a mentor at all, so I just kinda figured it out on my own. Rainbow cakes and arty cakes made my designs SO much more beautiful and appealing to the mass. I've now been painting a total of 5 years, (actively for 2 years). I've actually started using my rainbow cakes a little less now that I have more experience and knowledge of linework and detail. I use powders and mix my paint with silver... ect.. to get the opacity that I want. But.... you probably won't ever see me do a butterfly without some sort of rainbow cake. Just sayin. Fast and beautiful.

I've not seen Lynne's tutorial, but I find most face paint tutorials painfully slow. But I watch them anyway & learn what I can. When I actually watch a tutorial... I have a netbook & not a full computer, so I get tired of "buffering" & waiting till the videos load. I'd much rather look at a photo & use my imagination to figure out how it was done

This said, you'll be surprised what you can learn from watching these artist in your own living room, without the expense of airfare, hotel fees, convention fees, etc. I'm praying to some day have a FABATV subscription(and a computer that can handle it ).

Denise, my apologies if you felt disrespected - it was not my intention to make anyone feel badly! It's so hard to read intention and tone in internet forums. I would never disrespect someone for disagreeing with me nor would I expect someone else to disrespect me because they didn't agree with something I said...that's life! It's best just to make it a rule not to take anything personally or to heart on "teh intarwebs."
I vow to make better use of smilies to temper the perceived snark!

Yes, that's why Pashur, Mark, WB's, Marcela, or anyone else teach their classes - to share their art, and to make money - and ultimately, it makes us money, too. Selling classes makes them more money than average birthday parties or festivals. My comment was more on the perceived lack of accessibility of some of the FABATv designs. They're accessible, but they might take a little more imagination to learn how to make it work for you (the general "you," not the specific you) than a class like Pashur's where his constant refain is "this design is going to make you lots of money" and his intention is to put that exact design on your board. It's much different than other classes where they teach you technique and then have you combine the various techniques into something of your own. Neither is right, just different ways of present information. I think it's interesting to think about how this all interplays with the idea of art, originality, inspiration, and some perspiration! I like to muse, respectfully debate and paint, others just like to paint. This forum has a little bit of everything for everyone and it's lovely.

You're right that haute couture is not accessible to us commonfolk and that we need the Isaac Mizrahi's of the world to sell us the Target prêt-à-porter versions, lol.

Yes, in the end, it's absolutely just face paint.

Peace out, yo!

I personally have learned to accept the way another artist constructs his/her artwork as the way that they work rather than bothering with being frustrated because they aren't using my preferred method. At a convention last year a studen attempted to call an instructor to the carpet becasue his choice of tool wasn't sensical to HER. In the end, we have to use the tool that becomes the best extension of our artistic ability and let others do the same. I have design specific splits, but most of my work is done with sponging individuallyy, that's just how I like to work. When I see someone else doing it differently, it doesn't bother me and if I have a better method in mind it becomes nothing more than a note to self and doesn't reflect on their creative growth or lack there of.

Teaching and talking are indeed difficult; you're putting into words what usually just flows out of your artistic guff and that can sometimes mess with your flow because now you find yourself thinking about your design instead of letting it pour out of you. I've heard complaints about teachers who move too quickly and those who move at slightly slower than snails pace, I guess in the long run nobody will make everyone happy all at once. What I get out of watching those longer winded FABATV designs is technique...sometimes I'm surprised at the end product because I've been singularly studying a technique rather than trying to remember color combos and placement.

I'm a firm believer in the school of thought that holds that mastery of technique leads to master of design ideation so I don't get hung up on asking about brush sizes and specific paint colors/manufacturers; I'm not looking to put their design on my board...instead I want to walk away with my own design that is born out of the bigger picture. If FABATV were to start offering tons of classes singularly geared towards teaching board designs I think a lot of the subscribers would bail because a lot of us need the over the top, lengthy designs, not so much for birthday parties but for creative stretching.

As several people have said, there's a time and a place for everything and the when and where are determined by the individual and not the court of popular opinion.

Very well said Lady Jayde!

I've taught WITH Lynne J and was her "assistant" in the very first classes she taught (in the UK) ... she was extremely nervous, and probably still is, talking in front of people.

Lynne is the fastest painter I have ever seen... when she doesn't have to think and talk her speed is phenomenal... if you blink, you'll miss it.

It is completely unfair and unreasonable to critique someone's work and speed based on watching them demonstrate for a "lesson"... they are there to teach the techniques that THEY use. Take away what you can from watching them and listening to their instructions but don't expect them to blast away at real life working speed... that isn't why they are up there in front of you sharing their skills and knowledge.

I did a workshop at Living Canvas a few years ago... I was demonstrating working butterfly designs and had a stopwatch so the class could time how long each design took. I had a group of volunteers role play a typical line of kids at a gig and just about died laughing. Most were around two minutes (and I was talking) but one took almost 6 because she was cracking me up so bad.

Anyway the point is... you cannot expect to see real life speed when it is instruction - unless it is specifically for that purpose.

WATCH AND LEARN... that is why these instructors are making an effort to break down what THEY do so well... so you can learn from them. Then you go and practise and build up your own speed.

I need to second what Shannon said about Lynne and speed. I took a class with her this past summer. She showed us her 45 minute gorgeous butterfly (which was unbelievably stunning) and her literally THIRTY SECOND butterfly. I think my jaw dropped after watching her load three colors (I'm looking at my pictures from the class, it was TAG berry wine, unknown white, and a pink color), outline it, and NEXT!

Yeah... I, personally, wasn't trying to be critical of speed or anything like that. I was just curious about the new tools.

Yes there are new tools... and everyone chooses to try them or not, or use them or not. There is no right or wrong way to work.

Some people like what they are using and choose not to try to adapt to a "new" technique.

Thing to remember with the "experts" who are doing these presentations is that they are doing them because of their abilities and talents and the demand to see "how they do that"... they are skilled artists and are sharing their methods.

I mean, I wouldn't want to get up in front of a class or camera and try to use something I'm not familiar or comfortable with, and certainly not an expert with.

I'm so new to this that I have been soaking up info like a sponge for about seven months now. Every one who has a talent has been an instructor to me in one way or another. Sometimes it is color pairings, sometimes linework, sometimes how to get dimension, etc., etc. heck, sometimes I just adore an avatar! I have books by Wolfe Bro., Donna Dewberry, Lilly Walters, dear Shannon, etc., etc. I've gotten knowledge from them all. You kinda gotta admire the foks that dare to teach. So much easier to be the student or the critic. IMO

Isn't it the end result that matters, not how you get there?

I'll give that two yups!

Shannon, I'm glad you brought your perspective to the discussion. I would have loved to see the demonstration!

As far as the particular class we're talking about...I actually LOVED the class and have watched it TWICE and learned a TON but the sponge loading technique she was using was really SILLY...THERE...I SAID IT! :p

Why do we keep acting like I said "Lynne is such a bad teacher" she's obviously a FABULOUS teacher....I'm tired of being misunderstood and then someone seconding the motion! LOL!

And as far as speed is concerned I actually appreciated that Lynn stopped at certain places, as has been mentioned, and said "okay, you could stop here" and then would paint a bit more and say it again...that, again, was great.

I guess as a fairly new painter I really get frustrated with tutorials or printed designs that are supposed to be applicable for me as a face painter (and are intimidating THERE I SAID IT! ) because they are so beautiful and then you realize they took 45 minutes to create it...we'll no wonder it looks so freakin' fabulous!!!

So what do I expect? I guess when an instructor says "you could use this in your business" I expect a design at a level that can be completed by an intermediate painter in 8 minutes or less.

I know it's tempting to perfect designs when you are on camera and you want the finished product to be beautiful but maybe instructors could do like Lynn and stop and say "This is where I usually stop at fairs...if I'm at a birthday, I do this...." and then add the extra flowers, gems, bling, etc.

Okay...done, done, done...

D.

I can understand your frustration... which is why I don't watch videos and rarely bother looking at step-by-steps. And when I go to conventions I never stay for a whole class.

I think that a lot of people look at a design and think that it was or is a design done on the job but, while there are some painters (Wolfe, Reid, Jamieson, Tonkowich, etc.) who CAN produce the amazing to the rest of us stuff in mere minutes, most humans take longer to produce competition worthy work.

Showing off something you painted at home is great but most of use would not be painting in on a gig, at least not the way it is done in the photos or examples shown. We do the fancy stuff then start scaling it back to be done for real life on squirming kids.

As Lynne does...

Think of it this way:

If you can paint a stunning design relatively quickly (Let's say you get it down to 10-15 minutes), then how much faster will you be able to paint the scaled down version? And how much more awesome will it be because of the high speed, but high quality line strength you perfected when painting the full thing.

I'm kind of like Shannon in that when I sit in a class (I don't wander around...I can get lost in a bathroom stall) I pick up a technique and then start playing with it during the class. I might start off painting what the instructor is painting but I invariably wind up taking off in some other direction because I got what I came for, another technique to work into my skillset. I'm not big on taking step-by-step pictures because I will probably never sit down and try to recreate the design. I'd rather spend my time painting than taking pictures and I usually get a lot more from my written notes than any snapshot anyway.

Everyone is different and that's a good thing...jamming with yourself would just be boring!

I wanted to show an example. I did this as one of my 1st competition faces. It is on my business cards, car magnets & yard signs. It probably took about 30-45 minutes to paint. I get a lot of requests for it.


When requested I say, "This was a competition design, but I have a quick version I can do for you." I then paint this.


Same design, but one is for fun & creativity & the other is for the real world. Now, the trick is to take what we see in these tutorials, classes, step by steps, etc & learn the techniques & then run with it in the real world.

LOL! I did not want to create any adversity when I made my 1st post on this subject. I just understand, from the stand point of a teacher, that what you see in these videos is often for the benefit of the students & not how the artists work in the real world.

Linda, sometimes adversity motivates growth (and develops scar tissue and thicker skin)...I'm surprised I'm not armor plated by now!

Thanks for posting those two pictures! They are the perfect example of what I was talking about...because you can paint that beautiful mask, your quick rendition has more wow factor ... all that skill and technique crammed into a quick design can easily lead to uber high impact painting. The strong lines alone make it jump out at you more than the mask. It's condensed awesomeness...so to speak... the Perfect example!

On a side note, your new butterfly is beautiful, Denise.