smart business or exploitation?

Here is the scenario...

A glitter tattoo service calls you looking for your face painting services because they don't face paint and their clients wants a face painter also. They ask for a "better rate" and you will not be getting mileage reimbursement. You give them a discounted rate of $50/hr and you commit to doing this job in June. Later you find out that the glitter tattoos girl that hired you to do the job is also making $50/hr after she pays you when you are doing all the work at a discounted rate. This did not happened to me but I spoke my mind and told the glitter tattoos girl I felt she was undervaluing face painters. She should have taken her profit from the client and NOT out of the face painters pocket. She could have paid the face painter their normal rate and still made a profit. What do you think? Is this smart business or exploitation?

I am lost. So would you be doing the glitter tattoos for them or would she be doing the glitter tattoos?

If she is doing glitter tattoos at 50 an hour and you are face painting at 50 an hour then it seems kind of fair to me. Except that glitter tattoos cost more to purchase than face paints do... so she is making less than you in all reality... Although your work is more labor intensive than hers is. so maybe it just works out and is fair?

She would be doing the glitter tattoos. Her rate is $100-$150/hr.

i dunno, it seems fair to me.

If you agree to the price how are you being exploited? You could walk away. If enough people walk away then she needs to raise her price.

Are you saying that she got $100 for YOUR services only and paid you $50 of it, while her pay was separate from that? If THAT'S the case then, I don't think it's fair... 50% is too high a rate to act as an agent (and I regularly turn down THAT kind of offer). I"m not sure we're all interpreting what you said the same way though.

I don't think that an agent (or someone booking parties for you) should be getting more than 15 to 20% if you are the one doing all the really hard work. I know, I know... I keep hearing this "advertising expenses" yadda yadda yadda.... but really, I have to afford my own advertising too and again, I"M doing all the work. There's my vent for the day.

Perry, that is exactly what I'm saying. She getting $100/hr from the client for her tattoo services PLUS $100/hr for the face painter's services (it's not me) and she is paying the face painter $50/hr. So for a 6 hr gig the glitter tattoo girl will walk away with a total of $600 for getting the gig and doing tattoos and the face painter will walk away with $200. Originally when I did the first post I thought she negotiated the face painter down in price which would mean she was profiting from the client AND taking $ out of the face painter's pocket. I felt that was being really greedy and exploiting the face painter. Since that post I found out the face painter she hired only charges $50/hr (way too cheap for this area) which allows the glitter tattoo girl to make 50%. The client sees $100/hr as reasonable because it IS for this area. At this point I'm thinking the glitter tattoo girl and this other face painter are a great match - they both undervalue face painting. I'm just glad I didn't take the job when the glitter tattoo girl offered it to me. Thanks for listening

Since the FP got her normal rate, then she wasn't exploited at all. It's very good business on the part of the glitter person.
Why would the glitter person know the value of face painters anyway, if they don't offer it? That isn't her responsibility. That is the responsibility of the painter. She isn't undervaluing it, she is taking it at face value~ the same as any other client would.

Not to mention that if $100 is the going rate for one glitter tattist, then it makes sense to charge $200 for two people. There is a chance that deal was negotiated before they had even signed up a fp-er.

Perhaps if someone else were to have taken the gig, they would have been paid their rate. *shrug*

The agent rates are the same in this area Perry, hovering around 20%. Honestly, I don't care what they make as long as I get my money.

I'm ok with 20%... I keep getting offered to work with them getting 40 to 50% which I am NOT doing. I absolutely think that anything OVER 20% is a total rip off for the person doing the real work.

New Jersey,
There are agents like About Faces who take about 50%. When working for an agent you have to tell them how much you charge, or expect from them. If your rate is $125 and you will work for someone else who gets the jobs and you feel that they should be able to take 20%, then you let them know that your agent rate is $100.

After that what the agent charges is up to them, and you are both happy.

That's the way it should work....if you decide to give up more then that, that's up to you. However, if the agent wants to charge less, and you agree to work for less then your regular or discounted rate, then you might be encouraging the agent to think that it's ok not to pay your rate. They will now be charging the same rate that you would have been charging, and taking their fee out of your fee.

For some, their rate is low, and $50 is great for them. Most haven't done the math and don't understand that that low rate isn't good business.

Anyway, I hope you get the idea of what I'm trying to say.

Jenny

I have to say I'm surprised Perry that so many are up front about taking 50%

My theory on this, and it comes from being a performer for nearly 20 years, is that they are saving me A LOT of work. Additional advertising to markets I may not have access to, they do. All the legal paperwork and contracts. Done. All the hassle of the haggling and dealing with clients. Not to mention that booking agents generally aren't booking birthday parties but events that pay much more (corporate and community). They save me so much time, work and effort that they really do earn what they keep.
I have also had one up my price for me, because he knew the client would pay. He maintained that standard for all the corporate clients after that.

As long as I make what I need, then all is good.


Keep in mind that not everyone has super high overhead. If they are using a lower quality of paint, no glitter, paint only tiny balloons and snowmen or only do gigs within a certain distance, $50 could very well be profitable. It all depends on what their base is.
I don't think it's as much of not understanding the cost of it as much as not doing market research to find out what skills are worth in the area. Or perhaps her skills aren't as high as others so she charges accordingly.
I don't think it's so hard and fast as "This is what should be charged in XX area because that's what everyone charges" at all. Yes there needs to be a level of uniformity but within that there needs to be the allowance for skill level differences.
There are entirely too many variables to judge on here.

It sounds to me like the person who booked the gig is taking 1/2 the funds, which is the difference between what she is charging the customer, and the rate the face painter agreed to do the work for. The face painter is being sub-contracted, and can't complain, because she did agree to charge the tattoo artist this rate to do the job. I do personally feel that the tattoo artist is exploiting the face painter in the respect that the tattoo artist is actually serving as the face painter's booking agent in this situation. As far as I know, it is uncommon for an agent to take more than a 15-20% fee. In this situation, I believe the tattoo artist should pay the face painter $80/hour at the very minimum.

Lynnie - you are right - the face painter was not exploited because she got her rate. I didn't realize that when I first posted. I thought the glitter girl talked her down to make a bigger profit.

The glitter girl is not an agent but she is excellent at marketing and when she gets the tattoo gigs and the client says "do you have any face painters?" she says yes even though she doesn't. She will bend over backwards to give the client what they want.

I have never dealt with an agent but I do know they need to make money too. I have no problem with them adding their fee onto mine. Yeah if I could get my rate and get jobs from them without having to market I would love it. That is not the case with the tattoo girl.

She has never wanted to pay me my actual rate. She was always looking for a break. I met her 1 yr ago and she offered me a job working for her company for $25/hr. My business was new and I was nieve so I really considered it because I had no business. My husband said it would not be a wise business move to work for her at such a low rate when I couldn't promote my own business. I would be passing up jobs at my $80/hr rate because I was committed to her jobs. She offered me this last job at $50/hr and frankly I find it annoying. I do face painting AND glitter tattoos at $80/hr. She does just glitter tattoos and gets $100-$150/hr so why am I not worth my $80/hr rate? I carefully considered the rates in my area and my rate is already a little less. I don't care that glitter tattoo materials cost more than face painting - I put much more time and effort into face painting than with glitter tattoos. Practicing, updating designs - the creative factor should be worth something too. My 14 yr old neighbor can do my glitter tattoos - no practice needed. My time and effort is worth at least $80/hr. I have 3 kids and a husband that works 3 jobs. I would rather stay home and take care of them than be taken.
I appreciate everyone's feedback. Thank you.

Does this Glitter Girl use stencils only or does she actually do freehand designs? Her rate seems awfully high if she is only using stencils. I would expect the rate to be $50-75 hour for stencil work. The stencil application is truly simple and can be done by a 14 year old or even a 5 year old--but freehand designs require a lot more skill. The cost of a glitter tattoo is about ranges from .60 to .80 including glitter, glue, stencil. At most the glitter tattoo artist is probably doing 15 tattoos--so her total cost for the hour is $9-$12--she's making $88-91 for tattoos +$50---Total $138-$141....she is doing really well for herself.

One thing that bothers me about glitter tattoo artist's is that some have no concept of complimentary colors--at this point it will look like a 5 year old did it anyway and I don't think you can charge so much when it doesn't look AWESOME! Lately I've been experimenting with Mica Tattoo Powders as a base and then adding a semi-sheer glitter to accent the underlying color and I've gotten some great unique colors this way.

I personally feel like the face painter is bringing down the market for her area and she will never be able to raise her rates to what she is really worth. It's really important to explore going rates in your area. I suppose she really just needs the work.

I do also agree the Glitter Girl is one heck of a marketer.

Okay...sorry I could talk about glitter all day & night.

The glitter girl does not do free hand tattoos she uses stencils. She is very good at it but her marketing ability is why she is making a killing.

She tells me she is offended because I judged her for what she pays people. I'm offended by the fact that if I took the $50/hr job because I had no other bookings (yet) she would have made $30/hr off of me and $50 off the client. She capitalizes on the fact that "people just want the work". She already had the gig, the face painting job fell in her lap so no marketing was involved. She would have made $80 while I would have made $50 and done all the work - damn right I'm offended. She says it's my prerogotive to turn it down. And now that I know how much she would have made I have a right to be offended too.

Yes the other face painter is bringing down market for the area. It's unfortunate but like you said she must need the work.

For me, an agent actually makes things harder for me... they never give me all the information that I ask the client, I don't do contracts anyway, I never get a deposit because they pay after the gig is LONG over and this area is not so big that I can't reach any area that I'm willing to serve. In fact, I've gotten a few calls from outside of where I usually work, so I seem to be reaching pretty far with all the free marketing that I've been doing. So really, it's not worth losing the money or the opportunity to give out my own info for me.

I do not work through agents. I "own" this town and there are no agents here...

I've only been contacted by one from somewhere in the south of the province who had absolutely no idea where I lived as they were inquiring if I was available for a gig in Rocky Mountain House, outdoors, in winter.... DUH!? Then they asked if I was available for a job in Fort McMurray... again, DUH!? Yeah, sure I'll drive 16 hours ONE WAY for a 2 hour gig AND give you a discount too! Sure.

I don't do agents either for all the same reason. I started out that way & got tired of 1/2 info, unprofessional practices, possible jobs that didn't pan through & caused me to miss real work, yada, yada, yada. I will help friends in a pinch if I'm available(like a sudden death in the family or they get the flu & need me to take over their gig).
I had a local agency recently ask me to work for $20/hr

Agents sound a lot like pimps!

ROFLMAO.... so maybe we should just leave the craft paint hookers for them!

Perry Noia wrote:ROFLMAO.... so maybe we should just leave the craft paint hookers for them!

lmao now...best line of the day

Perry Noia wrote:ROFLMAO.... so maybe we should just leave the craft paint hookers for them!

Sounds good to me, Perry!

I have a good relationship with my agent - I also get a cut when I book him. I always make more money booking myself - but having an agent gives me work when I don't have it sometimes so there's a trade off, but I willing to live with it. When my situation changes I will renegotiate my terms.

I know lots of painters who work through agents and are happy/content to do so. And some are excellent to work for, so I've heard.

But you do need to do some checking around if you are approached, read the fine print, etc.

HA!